CSM's -Continuous Shuffle Machines

[DaveG]

I consider that the use of CSM's completly destroys any card counting algorithm. What are the members views on this?. Another question is does it affect the use of basic strategy?. If the latency of the CSM is small, then the probability of drawing cards from an infinite deck is independent.
In the UK these machines are in use in most BJ games using 6 decks DOA, DAS allowed. The casinos edge is about 0.5%.
Where can I get some information on these machines, and does any members succeed in using card counting?

 

[nighthawk718]

I usualy don't play at the CSM game.

 

[Koz1984]

I agree with you. Find a shoe game where possible.

 

[bjcardcounter]

I consider that the use of CSM's completly destroys any card counting algorithm. What are the members views on this?. Another question is does it affect the use of basic strategy?. If the latency of the CSM is small, then the probability of drawing cards from an infinite deck is independent.
In the UK these machines are in use in most BJ games using 6 decks DOA, DAS allowed. The casinos edge is about 0.5%.
Where can I get some information on these machines, and does any members succeed in using card counting?

How many cards do they discard in the tray before feeding back to the csm?

 

[UK-21]

I consider that the use of CSM's completly destroys any card counting algorithm. What are the members views on this?. Another question is does it affect the use of basic strategy?. If the latency of the CSM is small, then the probability of drawing cards from an infinite deck is independent.
In the UK these machines are in use in most BJ games using 6 decks DOA, DAS allowed. The casinos edge is about 0.5%.
Where can I get some information on these machines, and does any members succeed in using card counting?

I think the short answer is don't waste any time and effort studying what makes them tick with a view to identifying how to play with an advantage. Although it's possible to determine the very odd occasion when you may have an advantage (no more than equiv of TC+2 or thereabouts) it won't come up very often and will only last for a couple of hands or so.

If you search through past postings you'll find a thread started by someone (in the UK I think) who was advertising some 1-2-6s for sale at cEURO 11K each, for analysing by professional players to see how they could be taken to the cleaners (so to speak). I don't think there were any takers.

 

[Elhombre]

CSM's

I consider that the use of CSM's completly destroys any card counting algorithm. What are the members views on this?. Another question is does it affect the use of basic strategy?.

No it doesn't from my experiances.
Since the last four days I am in hole of 14 big units, that could happen.

I am much interested how long it would last to get out.

Don't waste your time against theese machines. I do it because of training
purposes, because the casino is near my home and for experiances
with theese suckers, not to make much money.:whip:

Or to write a book about how to beat the 1-2-6

If the game has early surrender or you could get rebates or comps
like in Macau it could be worth to play.

Counting with a big spread if the dealer lets many cards in the tray
is theoretically possible,IMHO useless because of flux.

E.H

If the latency of the CSM is small, then the probability of drawing cards from an infinite deck is independent.
In the UK these machines are in use in most BJ games using 6 decks DOA, DAS allowed. The casinos edge is about 0.5%.
Where can I get some information on these machines, kidnapp one,
there is a Patent Number too
and does any members succeed in using card counting?

Happy new year to all
E.H.

 

[DaveG]

CSM's

Thank you all for your replies. The amount of cards allowed to build up in the discard tray is about 2-3 rounds worth. About half to one decks worth. So its useless keeping a count.
My own conclusions are to use basic strategy and hope for the best.

All the BJ tables in the casino use these darn machines. The UK's Gambling Commision allow the casinos to get away with this. Not enough people complain or boycot the tables as most UK players dont count or have much idea on how to play BJ properly. I guess I'll have to wait until I visit the US. Thanks again- hope they dont take over and offer you no choice.

 

[UK-21]

Not quite the case. A few years back, Shufflemaster Inc made an approach to the UKGC that they should proscribe the use of CSMs in all casinos under their jurisdiction (as part of their licensing obligations) as is the case with the licensing authority in Greece. The document was published on their web site, within the public consultation area, but has been pulled as it's several years old now. They have, to the best of my knowledge, never made the use of CSMs in UK casinos mandatory.

Consequently, there are many casinos that still offer shoe games, particularly in London. The Gala group still offer all six deck shoe games, and I think it's unlikely they'll adopt CSMs due to the leasing costs (and the fact that the Coral group carry massive levels of debt).

If you live in a part of the country where the only casinos there are managed by those groups who have leased CSMs, I would suggest saving your pennies and planning a trip to London to take advantage of the playing opportunities there. Napleons in Leicester Square offer four deck shoe games which are a blackjack player's dream (unless your visit coincides with the staff offering particularly mean pen).

Best of luck.

 

[CrazyEddie]

I consider that the use of CSM's completly destroys any card counting algorithm. What are the members views on this?

Raise your bet from $25 to $200 and see if they yell "Checks play." (They do.)

 

[CrazyEddie]

Somebody else answered the question about "checks play" at CSM tables by saying the house might just be trying to have consistent procedures, or calling the pit's attention to high-dollar play generally.

Can someone confirm:

1) The house doesn't care how big or small my bets are if I am playing against a CSM.

2) I am not going to get backed off of a CSM game no matter what (i.e. for merely winning money).

 

[21forme]

There are no guarantees. Casinos are run by stupid people who do stupid things. I know of one casino that has banned a bunch of players, only one of whom was an AP. The others were big bettors who got lucky.

 

[Sucker]

Can someone confirm:

1) The house doesn't care how big or small my bets are if I am playing against a CSM.

2) I am not going to get backed off of a CSM game no matter what (i.e. for merely winning money).

To both statements, I can confirm the OPPOSITE:
1) The larger the bet, the closer they watch. There are MANY things that they have to worry about other than card counters.
2) I have been backed off from a CSM twice in the past. Both times I was flat betting.

Bottom line: In most casinos, if someone wins too much money, they'll be backed off. It does not matter WHAT game they're playing. I even know someone who was backed off from playing KENO at Benny Binions' Horseshoe because he was unlucky enough grin to win a $50k jackpot twice in one month.

 

[21forme]

2) I have been backed off from a CSM twice in the past. Both times I was flat betting.

If you don't mind me asking, why were you playing a CSM?

 

[Sucker]

If you don't mind me asking, why were you playing a CSM?

There are certain very lucrative AP techniques that on rare occasions will work on a CSM, and then ONLY if certain rare situations fall into place. Sorry if I can't go into further detail - the walls have ears. :cool2:

 

[CrazyEddie]

If you don't mind me asking, why were you playing a CSM?

I can think of a few reasons to play a CSM (with basic strategy). One reason is that I feel free to sharply raise and lower my bets, on a hunch or just for fun, secure in the knowledge that the casino can't possibly think I'm a counter. When the dealer in a CSM says "Checks play" I say, "Yeah, checks play baby! More checks play! Play those checks!"

I realize this style of play might be probably very different from the way you play, and it is very different than how I would typically approach a shoe or handheld game, but yes, I have fun with CSMs.

I was hoping to hear there is a general consensus in the casino biz that CSMs can't be counted, and therefore no bet sizing decision of mine at a CSM table is going to raise suspicions or get me backed off or barred.

P.S. If you have an edge over CSMs, PMs accepted.

 

[Lonesome Gambler]

Big bet variations will get you backed off of ANY game, depending on the casino. Even large flat bets will draw a lot of heat at moderately or highly sweaty places. Casinos don't like to lose, period; if they're losing an amount of money that is approaching their pain threshold, they'll pay close attention to the game, no matter how ridiculous the game itself is, thinking that the player may be beating the game, even if they don't know how. Like Sucker said, there are a few ways to beat CSM games under special circumstances (I can only think of 2 or 3 at best, and they're very, very uncommon), but they can be beat. If a casino is hemorrhaging money at a game with a large bettor, you can bet that he will be under scrutiny.

As far as "checks play" goes, why are people so worried about this? Big bettors don't flinch when checks play is called, and neither should you. If you can yell, "checks play, baby!" at a CSM game, you can do it at a shoe game, unless you're really trying to keep a very low profile. If I were working the floor in a blackjack pit, I would watch how potential counters acted when checks play is called—wouldn't you?