Dealing with a Ploppy dealer

[stinkus]

Sorry if this is a little long.

Over this weekend i was down at the borgata. My brother just recently turned 21 and so i took him down to the casino for the first time. No counting, nothing fancy just teaching him some Basic Strategy blackjack.

We sit down at a $15 dollar table and everything is going great. Win a few hands lose a few hands, just getting him accustomed to playing in casino and having some fun. I was sitting 3rd base and he is next to me, so while other players were acting he would tell me what he thought his move was and i would correct him if he was wrong etc....

Well then a new dealer comes. A couple of hands play out fine then my brother gets 12 V a dealer 3, my brother looks at me and says "Hit that right?" and of course tell him yes, so he taps the table to hit and the dealer says "Are you sure you want to do that?", he looks at me and i nod for him to take the hit. She shakes her head, rolls her eyes and gives him the card. he breaks and she kinda laughs. (Cool thing about my younger brother is i don't have to worry about him listening to me, he knows i know basic strat and said that no matter what anyone else suggests he will listen to what i suggest, no questions asked).

A few hands later, dealer is showing a 5 and another player is dealt 5,5 and the player just takes a hit. My brother turns to me and says "He should have doubled there right?" I of course agree, then the dealer says, "No, a dealer 5 can be dangerous".

Similiar type things went on during her entire down, making unsolicited comments on players decisions, asking them if they were sure on normal basic strategy decisions and on too many occasions giving incorrect advice sometimes causing them to play incorrectly. When she was wrong but it worked out she would smile and say something like "See i made you win there". She did not seem to like me as i was pretty much the only one not following her advice as well as telling my brother not to listen to her but to listen to me.

Strangest thing though was one hand my brother gets Soft 18 against a dealer 3, i tell him to double, he does,(she makes no comment), my brother plucks a 4. Dealer turns over 13 and then pulls a 10 to break. Now she tells my brother, "Listen to him he knows what to do, he'll make you money" his double wound up causing the dealer to break and save the table. Strange as ploppies don't usually double soft 18's, figured she would have hated this play.

After this long winded story my question is how do you deal with a ploppy dealer? Now of course i ignore the advice and tell my bro to as well. In general i NEVER give unsolicited advice to other players (except family or my friends) and if someone does ask for my opinion i always say "I would do X but its your money so do what you ant to do".

Generally i just let the ploppies make bad plays etc as it usually is never good since everytime your advice causes them to lose they get upset, but would you say something when a dealer is giving poor advice? Would you say something to other players? Pit Boss or floor person? I felt bad for them as many novices assume the dealer is giving sound advice.

 

[rogue1]

It must be in the AC air

Played at the Tropicana in AC last summer. This dealer named Vau was a major goombah!

 

[EasyRhino]

Well, if you're just there playing strategy, I supposed you could argue with them, and complain that you're just doing what the book tells you to do.

Last time I had a dealer that disapproved of my play (she didn't believe in surrender or some double-downs), I just started playing my own way just to mess with her. It became kind of a running gag between us.

 

[FUHGEDABOUDIT]

The Simple Truth Is

That Most Dealers Are Just Ploppies On The Other Side Of The Table.

 

[beat320]

I was playing at the tropicana in AC a few months ago and had a dealer literally act disgusted whenever someone would hit a hard 16 against 7 8 9 10 A... "if a 6 is a dealer bust card then why do you hit on it? you will bust most of the time" so I say to her "I'm just picking the way that I lose, maybe I bust..but chances are you're holding a better hand than me" she got really pissed the next time when i hit a 16 and got a 5

"then the dealer says, "No, a dealer 5 can be dangerous"."

haha you shouldve said "then am I allowed to take insurance on it?" that wouldve shut him up really quick

 

[rogue1]

When at the AC Tropicana with dealer Vau dealing there was a lady playing at the table and I got the impression she was an off duty dealer. She kept going ape whenever I hit a soft 18! Was is it with AC dealers anyway?
Vau kept telling us how he's been a dealer since the 1980's at The Playboy Club and blah,blah,blah. They should maybe read a blackjack book and stop with the blah,blah,blah. Wouldn't surprise me if the dealer you speak of was the same babe at my table going on about hitting a soft 18. To quote James Caan-"Those who have the least to offer usually speak the loudest"

 

[ihate17]

The vast majority of dealers are ploppies

Generally i just let the ploppies make bad plays etc as it usually is never good since everytime your advice causes them to lose they get upset, but would you say something when a dealer is giving poor advice? Would you say something to other players? Pit Boss or floor person? I felt bad for them as many novices assume the dealer is giving sound advice.

Most dealers have learned their version of playing blackjack from the people who play at their tables. They may have gone to school to learn the mechanics of dealing, but not to learn how to play. Besides that, what makes you think the floor would know the correct play? I recently heard a floor tell a new player when asked if she should split her 2,2 vs 6, that, "God no, splitting 2's has to be one of the worst plays imaginable, you will only lose twice as much."
From a cardcounter point of view, it is nice to have these dealers and pits as they are harmless to me but can and do hurt innocent novices. There is not much you can do about it. In my case, I do not want to challenge the dealer for the position of table expert, I will just be that idiot who refuses the dealer's poor advice when given. As for the other players, I give correct basic strategy advice when they ask but always throw in, "nothing works all the time and it is your money." Kind of a disclaimer. I give no advice unless asked.

Now, I distinctly do not like the guy I call, "The Guru Ploppy Dealer" and you find that this creature resides mainly in casinos where dealers keep their own tips. It is a pure hustle and because even with poor advice a decent percentage of players can get on short positive runs, it must work often enough to increase the weight in the dealers toke box. Basically, the dealer finds a well healed novice player who has confidence in the dealers ability to give him not only play strategy but betting strategy. He will often have the guy pushing a big bet out and repeating it after a win. Luck will always come with big tokes, no luck and the player loses and the dealer just looks for his next hustle. It goes on and on, "double your bet, go to two hands, stand this time because I am sure XYZ, and of course blame the guy on the other side of the table who hit instead of standing if it goes bad.

ihate17

 

[beat320]

yeah im not sure what's up with them..never been anywhere else so I don't really have anywhere else to compare to. I've had some pretty decent dealers too though, one who said to the ploppy yelling at me hitting a 15 against a dealer 10 and busting "he made the right move"...
One time actually I was at the trop and a guy sat down right at the beginning of a shoe (so i knew he wasnt wonging) he gets 10's and goes "does anyone mind if i split those?" well the pitt boss was watching the game and went on this 10 minute rant about how you should never split 10's unless you want the whole table mad at you...it was kind of funnym that pitt boss was a pretty cool lady, making jokes and conversations with us and what not.

 

[SecurityRisk]

I was playing one time, and I had a rare dealer who know basic strategy. He knew that you should hit a 12 vs. 2 & 3, should double soft 18 vs. 3, simply hit, not double, soft 13 vs. 3, etc. And he noticed that I knew basic strategy too. The problem came when I deviated from BS. Particularly 16 vs. 10. There were numerous times when I would stand on 16 vs. 10. He would lecture me that I can't be scared, I have to hit those hands. I said something like I had a bad feeling about that hand, and he would say "You can't think that way. You have to always hit those hands. You can't be chicken just because you have a big bet out." I couldn't exactly tell him that the count called for me to stand, so I just kept making stupid excuses. I really don't think that he suspected I was counting.

 

[SecurityRisk]

yeah im not sure what's up with them..never been anywhere else so I don't really have anywhere else to compare to. I've had some pretty decent dealers too though, one who said to the ploppy yelling at me hitting a 15 against a dealer 10 and busting "he made the right move"...
One time actually I was at the trop and a guy sat down right at the beginning of a shoe (so i knew he wasnt wonging) he gets 10's and goes "does anyone mind if i split those?" well the pitt boss was watching the game and went on this 10 minute rant about how you should never split 10's unless you want the whole table mad at you...it was kind of funnym that pitt boss was a pretty cool lady, making jokes and conversations with us and what not.

One time I'm playing and this novice (not counter) at the table is dealt two tens. The player says "Should I split these?" The dealer responds "Why? Do you want these people to kick your ass?"

 

[beat320]

One time I'm playing and this novice (not counter) at the table is dealt two tens. The player says "Should I split these?" The dealer responds "Why? Do you want these people to kick your ass?"

hahahaha... i don't know if i wouldve laughed or felt bad for the guy

 

[ihate17]

Giving him some of the true possibilites

One time I'm playing and this novice (not counter) at the table is dealt two tens. The player says "Should I split these?" The dealer responds "Why? Do you want these people to kick your ass?"

I like that dealer. He is giving the information about something that just might happen if he splits those tens. Have seen it happen and almost happen.

 

[EasyRhino]

Dealer was getting frustrated with my inconsistent behavior me after I stood on a 16v10. Later, I had the same hand, and the count was zero, so I showed him the cards and asked him what he thought. He said "Just keep doing what you've been doing". So I thought back to my last 16v10, and stood.

He exclaimed "But you've been hitting those!". Turns out he was thinking about 16v7-9 as well.

I am such a failure as a player.

 

[Preston]

I think I got a better one...

A friend of mine (and fellow AP) recently got a job dealing at a local casino. So I stopped by to visit. Low and behold they had him at the $10 table.. and it was completely full. I just practiced backcounting for a bit.

I watch as the count starts to go up. TC was only about +2 but I look as the dealer has a 7 showing. The ploppy on first base gets dealt a 7 and a 3. he signals a hit.. My friend draws the card sideways (a deuce) and moves onto the next player.. who was splitting Aces. He gets the aces split and is on the third player before the ploppy at first base speaks up (the guy with the aces drew an A on one and a 3 on the other).

It was kind of entertaining to watch a dealer who knows how to be a player actually just mess up because he knows what the right play is.

 

[ihate17]

Not enough time dealing

I think I got a better one...

A friend of mine (and fellow AP) recently got a job dealing at a local casino. So I stopped by to visit. Low and behold they had him at the $10 table.. and it was completely full. I just practiced backcounting for a bit.

I watch as the count starts to go up. TC was only about +2 but I look as the dealer has a 7 showing. The ploppy on first base gets dealt a 7 and a 3. he signals a hit.. My friend draws the card sideways (a deuce) and moves onto the next player.. who was splitting Aces. He gets the aces split and is on the third player before the ploppy at first base speaks up (the guy with the aces drew an A on one and a 3 on the other).

It was kind of entertaining to watch a dealer who knows how to be a player actually just mess up because he knows what the right play is.

Preston, I am sure you got a kick at your friend's expense but your story is not surprising at all. Your friend is in the learning curve and very shortly he will learn to never take any player move for granted. Wait, one of these days one of his players will want to double a blackjack.

On one table recently I watched one player double a blackjack and lose. Ten minutes later a different guy splits his 4's against a dealer ace and wins both. Then perhaps two hands later, that same guy announces, when he gets 5's vs a dealer nine, "always split 5's in a DAS game", goes on to get 3 5's and one double and loses 4 bets. I know the dealer and this dealer knows basic strategy and will always give proper advice if asked, but along the way he has learned that giving proper advice when not asked can often get him in trouble with a player when he loses, so he is like a robot, just letting this guy play the way he wants to play. Once your friend gets in a bit of trouble with both the players and the pit a few times, he too will also just deal the cards.

ihate17

 

[AnIrishmannot2brite]

Hole card question

There's been some chat here that sitting at first or third base helps make the hole card visible. Seems to make sense. A better perspective on the table.

I really haven't given this advantage a lot of though until recently.

My question: If the dealer is right handed, what would be the better seat, first or third? Does it even make a difference?

My guess is that a right handed player would tend to give a peak to one side, a left handed dealer the other.

Just supposin'....

 

[EasyRhino]

Geeze, dealing a double down hand to a guy who didn't put any more money in the circle would seem to be a pretty rookie procedural mistake.

 

[shadroch]

There's been some chat here that sitting at first or third base helps make the hole card visible. Seems to make sense. A better perspective on the table.

I really haven't given this advantage a lot of though until recently.

My question: If the dealer is right handed, what would be the better seat, first or third? Does it even make a difference?

My guess is that a right handed player would tend to give a peak to one side, a left handed dealer the other.

Just supposin'....

Have you ever seen a dealer peek at his cards?

 

[EasyRhino]

Closest I've seen is when a dealer wants to add drama and reveal the hole card in such a way that he sees it first before the players.

... and actually, one dealer did the reverse... after my plays were done, he revealed the hole card such that I saw it first, and he looked at me for my reaction. Since I had a big bet out at the time, I was pretty happy to see that he had a stif hand.

 

[SilentBob420BMFJ]

A few hands later, dealer is showing a 5 and another player is dealt 5,5 and the player just takes a hit. My brother turns to me and says "He should have doubled there right?" I of course agree, then the dealer says, "No, a dealer 5 can be dangerous".

god, what a moron dealer.. i tell you what, i couldnt sit there with the dealer giving bad advice like that, i would have said "how can you deal blackjack for a living and know absolutely nothing about basic strategy? i mean your not even close" and if she insults "the book", then say "let me guess, instead of doing math and billions of computer simulations, you just go by what you see right?"

That Most Dealers Are Just Ploppies On The Other Side Of The Table.

just curious, why do you capitalize every single word in your posts? do you have ocd? i have it too, so im not making fun.. btw i pm'd you about this, but you didnt answer

Most dealers have learned their version of playing blackjack from the people who play at their tables. They may have gone to school to learn the mechanics of dealing, but not to learn how to play. Besides that, what makes you think the floor would know the correct play? I recently heard a floor tell a new player when asked if she should split her 2,2 vs 6, that, "God no, splitting 2's has to be one of the worst plays imaginable, you will only lose twice as much."
From a cardcounter point of view, it is nice to have these dealers and pits as they are harmless to me but can and do hurt innocent novices. There is not much you can do about it. In my case, I do not want to challenge the dealer for the position of table expert, I will just be that idiot who refuses the dealer's poor advice when given. As for the other players, I give correct basic strategy advice when they ask but always throw in, "nothing works all the time and it is your money." Kind of a disclaimer. I give no advice unless asked.

Now, I distinctly do not like the guy I call, "The Guru Ploppy Dealer" and you find that this creature resides mainly in casinos where dealers keep their own tips. It is a pure hustle and because even with poor advice a decent percentage of players can get on short positive runs, it must work often enough to increase the weight in the dealers toke box. Basically, the dealer finds a well healed novice player who has confidence in the dealers ability to give him not only play strategy but betting strategy. He will often have the guy pushing a big bet out and repeating it after a win. Luck will always come with big tokes, no luck and the player loses and the dealer just looks for his next hustle. It goes on and on, "double your bet, go to two hands, stand this time because I am sure XYZ, and of course blame the guy on the other side of the table who hit instead of standing if it goes bad.

ihate17

how hard would it be for casinos to tell their dealers, "basic strategy is correct, and "the book" that everybody talks about is right, dont question it, its mathematically correct whether you agree or not".. i dont see how players losing gets the dealer tips either

yeah im not sure what's up with them..never been anywhere else so I don't really have anywhere else to compare to. I've had some pretty decent dealers too though, one who said to the ploppy yelling at me hitting a 15 against a dealer 10 and busting "he made the right move"...

doesnt it feel good when the dealer puts a ploppy in their place, yet when a dealer says something stupid, we think, "how can a ploppy believe 1 person? just because the dealer says so makes it correct?".. so i guess we all have a little ploppy in us, such as when we split tens and get two tens, and the dealer busts, it makes everyone else look stupid, even tho it really doesnt matter what the result is

I was playing one time, and I had a rare dealer who know basic strategy. He knew that you should hit a 12 vs. 2 & 3, should double soft 18 vs. 3, simply hit, not double, soft 13 vs. 3, etc. And he noticed that I knew basic strategy too. The problem came when I deviated from BS. Particularly 16 vs. 10. There were numerous times when I would stand on 16 vs. 10. He would lecture me that I can't be scared, I have to hit those hands. I said something like I had a bad feeling about that hand, and he would say "You can't think that way. You have to always hit those hands. You can't be chicken just because you have a big bet out." I couldn't exactly tell him that the count called for me to stand, so I just kept making stupid excuses. I really don't think that he suspected I was counting.

i would have said "yes, but there are times when you deviate from basic strategy if you have additional information if you know what i mean".. like i always say, unless you are really pounding the casino, id rather let somebody know im counting than look like an idiot, even tho most of you may say that doing that is being an idiot, but if your playing with reds and greens, and spreading like 1-6, i seriously dont see a problem at most casinos..