Doubling Down for Less

[adt_33]

Although I always use BS, I still cringe when I double down on a soft 17 or 18, for instance, against a dealer's 5 (and then it seems like my total always becomes 14).

Is doubling down for less a good idea in this situation, or should I just deal with my inner demons and do what the BS charts demand?

Or, in other words, shouldn't the BS charts specify those hands when doubling down is very advantangeous, and other hands when doubling down is only slightly advantageous (which is when I'd like to double for less 'cause I'm a nervous wreck)?

 

[zengrifter]

Although I always use BS, I still cringe when I double down on a soft 17 or 18, for instance, against a dealer's 5 (and then it seems like my total always becomes 14).

Get used to it.

Is doubling down for less [ever] a good idea ?

Never

Or, in other words, shouldn't the BS charts specify those hands when doubling down is very advantangeous, and other hands when doubling down is only slightly advantageous (which is when I'd like to double for less 'cause I'm a nervous wreck)?

NO! zg

 

[Sonny]

Or, in other words, shouldn't the BS charts specify those hands when doubling down is very advantangeous, and other hands when doubling down is only slightly advantageous (which is when I'd like to double for less 'cause I'm a nervous wreck)?

The only way to know for sure whether a play is advantageous or not at this particluar time is to count cards. The BS card is an estimate based on all possible situations. It doesn't know what cards have been played or what your current situation is. A card counter will know if the play is appropriate at any given time based on the cards that have been played. A basic strategy player is helpless in these situations and should follow the BS card in order to minimize their losses.

-Sonny-

 

[rdorange]

Gotta double on dealer bust card.

Although I always use BS, I still cringe when I double down on a soft 17 or 18, for instance, against a dealer's 5 (and then it seems like my total always becomes 14).

adt, I'm not the expert, some one may support me on this....:joker:
When you hit those soft hands against a dealer five or six, you are not trying to improve your hand as much as you are trying to get as much money on the table as possible when the dealer is most likely to bust. In other words you are just banking on the dealer to bust and you win more moolahh!

 

[Canceler]

I'll support that, but...

When you hit those soft hands against a dealer five or six, you are not trying to improve your hand as much as you are trying to get as much money on the table as possible when the dealer is most likely to bust.

There are a lot of cards that will help, or not hurt, a soft 17 or 18.

 

[rdorange]

must read material

Hear is a great article on the subject..

http://renzey.casinocitytimes.com/article/if-you-dont-know-the-right-soft-doubles-dont-do-them-28036

I hope I did this right!

 

[ortango]

These don't even require math, just some logic. First of all if you get a face, you have a 17 or 18 which is still pretty strong against 5 or 6's. An Ace through 4 will make your hands very strong or unbeatable. Even if you get a stiff, the dealers 5's and 6's will bust 42-44% of the time.

 

[dacium]

You should always double for full. This is how the BS works. Most hands are loosing hands, so even if you have a 0.01% advantage the BS will tell you to double, and you should do it for the full amount. Expect to loose often. Even 11 vs 6 is only about 67% to win. This is the only way you can reduce the house edge. You must double for full just as you must always split 8's even though most of the time you will loose both hands.

Despite what everyone here has told you. Most likely not doubling down on soft hands will increase the house edge maybe 0.1% or less, and save you alot of variance. I play games that don't even allow double downs on soft totals.

 

[tedloc]

Odds

Although I always use BS, I still cringe when I double down on a soft 17 or 18, for instance, against a dealer's 5 (and then it seems like my total always becomes 14). QUOTE]

You have A/7 vs dealer 5.

Sure you want more money on the table. The probability of the dealer busting with a 5 showing is only 41% (6 Decks). Even when the turn over the hole card and it is a 10, the percentages only changes to 53%. So, why do you want to double? The reason is: You are an 8-5 favorite to draw a card that will give you 17 thru 21 (9,10,J,Q, K,A,2,3). 8-5 means you will win 8 and lose five. Doubling the hand wont help you to win, but you will have twice the money when you finish the 13 hands.

Whenever you are the favorite, you should try to get extra money on the table. A lot of people will not double 11 vs dealer 10. You are only a slight favorite to win (6-5), which means you will win 6 and lose 5. When you double this hand, you will have twice as much money after playing the 11 hands.

 

[adt_33]

Humble Response

OK, I'm an idiot. I can't figure out how to use the "quote" function. Sue me.

I read the replies. And I'm still not satisfied. I really do hate to sound like the bad guy, but am I the only one here that isn't rich? I have a moderate BR but seriously! I mean, I know that gambling in itself is risky, but I take the money and run the SECOND I get $100+ in profits. Like I mentioned in an earlier post, the last time I played in a casino I played for 8 minutes. My concern is quick profit and then flight.

Let's consider the consolations I received:

dacium:
Most hands are losing hands...Expect to lose often...

tedloc:
You are only a slight favorite to win (6-5)...

Sonny:
The only way to know for sure whether a play is advantageous or not at this particluar time is to count cards.

...So never doubling down for less is a good idea, huh? Maybe I'm the only one at this site that's more worried about losing $ than winning $$$$$$$$.

And to Sonny: Why would the BS charts even exist if the only way you could get an advantage is by card-counting? With that assumption, playing solely w/ BS would be ludicrous, and would always be frowned upon.

 

[Mikeaber]

ADT_33, <<And to Sonny: Why would the BS charts even exist if the only way you could get an advantage is by card-counting?>>

First off, I hope I have not misinterpreted your question. If so, I apologize.

The Basic Strategy charts give you the best chance of losing the least amount if you are basing decisions strictly on the probabilities from a deck whose composition is unknown. The only way you can know the composition of a deck is by counting cards.

With Basic Strategy alone, you can expect to be playing at a house advantage of somewhere on the order of .50% to .65% depending on the table rules for a 6-deck shoe game. It's not much of a disadvantage, but it is a disadvantage to the player. With Basic Strategy, variance may make you a winner over a short session or even a small number of sessions. But eventually, the math is going to catch up and you'll end up overall losing that .50% or .65% of the total amount you have wagered. That's just the way it is.

Now, as to why Basic Strategy cards sell: It would surprise me if anyone not employing Basic Strategy (INCLUDING Card Counters) would be playing at a disadvantage of much less than 5%. If buying a Strategy Card and learning it and employing it can reduce your disadvantage by 4.5%, then I would think that it would be worth it. Even for someone who was not an advantage player. There are a lot of Recreational Players who accept the slight disadvantage the house has and play the game hoping to catch a run that ends up with them being a little ahead and who, if they lose, chalk it up to entertainment. The comps would certainly do a lot to compensate for that slight house edge that keeps the casinos offering the game!

 

[nc-tom]

Although I always use BS, I still cringe when I double down on a soft 17 or 18, for instance, against a dealer's 5 (and then it seems like my total always becomes 14).

Is doubling down for less a good idea in this situation, or should I just deal with my inner demons and do what the BS charts demand?

Or, in other words, shouldn't the BS charts specify those hands when doubling down is very advantangeous, and other hands when doubling down is only slightly advantageous (which is when I'd like to double for less 'cause I'm a nervous wreck)?

adt33 while i am certinly not as good a player as the other responders to this thread i do know this much about BJ. One if you cant afford to lose it you cant afford to bet it.Two there is the right way to play this game and then there is the other way.Which way are you going to choose

 

[ortango]

adt, I hate to tell you this bud. But even the #1 bestest greatest super smartest BJ player loses more hands than he wins (except cheaters that is). It's built into the game. How do APs make money then? From advantageous situation such as spreads, Blackjacks, and DOUBLES. Doubles are only done in favorable situations, so you must maximize your advantage. If this doesn't make sense to you, I can't help you.

 

[ortango]

Maybe I'm the only one at this site that's more worried about losing $ than winning $$$$$$$$.

Also, doubling for less means losing $$$$$ and winning $. There is no defense and offense in BJ, only correct and incorrect. You can't "protect" your money by not doubling, because you are actually giving it away.

 

[Sonny]

I really do hate to sound like the bad guy, but am I the only one here that isn't rich?

If I was rich I wouldn’t be wasting my time posting messages on web, I would be lying on the beach of my own private island.

Like I mentioned in an earlier post, the last time I played in a casino I played for 8 minutes. My concern is quick profit and then flight.

There’s nothing wrong with that. I just have a different approach to the game. I have the advantage. I am there to win money. The longer I play, the more money I can expect to earn and the sooner I can expect to get it. I’m not a big fan of the wild fluctuations of the game. I am focused on the end result – the long run. The closer I get the happier I am.

...So never doubling down for less is a good idea, huh? Maybe I'm the only one at this site that's more worried about losing $ than winning $$$$$$$$.

By not doubling down for the full amount you are losing $$$$$$$. The casino is giving you the chance to double your bet when you have a better chance of beating them. By doubling for less you are not earning as much as you could from a good situation. You are just giving away money (or not accepting it when it is offered to you) by not playing properly.

Using your logic, since doubling is more risky why would you ever want to double down? Why not just always hit? You would win more often because you would be able to hit again if you get a bad card, and you would have less money on the table to be worried about. The question is, would you rather win much less money more often or win much more money a little less often? The correct answer should be “whichever earns the most money in the long run.” By doubling for the full amount you will be winning more money than by doubling for less or not doubling at all. This will help to offset all the money you lost during bad situations. I know you don't like losing money, so why not do everything you can to win it back?

And to Sonny: Why would the BS charts even exist if the only way you could get an advantage is by card-counting?

Because the BS chart is intended to minimize the house’s edge. Unfortunately, playing BS alone will not give you an advantage in the long run, it will only minimize your losses. The purpose of the BS chart is to give you a general idea of how to play most of the time. Card counting will tell you the proper way to play every time.

With that assumption, playing solely w/ BS would be ludicrous, and would always be frowned upon.

Well, in a way it is. If you think purposely and unnecessarily giving away your money is ludicrous then you’re right. However, it has become widely accepted that gambling (or “gaming” as the big corporations like to call it) is “fun.” I didn’t enjoy the feelings I got when the house took all of my money. I knew, even while I was gambling, that the house had the advantage and I wasn’t supposed to win. Knowing that I was intentionalyy throwing away my money made me feel like a sucker. That’s why I learned how to beat them at their own game. I still have losing sessions, but at least I know that I have the advantage and I have the power. Now I feel better knowing that I am supposed to win…and the money isn’t bad either!

-Sonny-

 

[sagefr0g]

...So never doubling down for less is a good idea, huh? Maybe I'm the only one at this site that's more worried about losing $ than winning $$$$$$$$.

if you never double down you will endanger your self of losing $ than winning $$$$$$$$. reason being you shall fail to use to the fullest extent one of the chief tools of the card counter that being basic strategy. doubling down is one of the components of basic strategy. basic strategy is employed to slow the rate of loss that any player will suffer in the long run, card counter or basic strategist.
basic strategy is employed in conjunction with card counting. card counting tells us when the best time to raise our bets while employeeing basic strategy so that we have the best chance to overcome that lessened loss rate that basic strategy provides with those favored higher bets.
basic strategy is the best way we know of to play blackjack excepting cases where a knowledge of the count gives us cues for proper basic strategy departure plays or in the cases where we may know the dealers hole card.

best regards,
mr fr0g

 

[TinaSparx]

Im with you on this!

ADT...
To go back to your original message...

Although I always use BS, I still cringe when I double down on a soft 17 or 18, for instance, against a dealer's 5 (and then it seems like my total always becomes 14).


Or, in other words, shouldn't the BS charts specify those hands when doubling down is very advantangeous, and other hands when doubling down is only slightly advantageous (which is when I'd like to double for less 'cause I'm a nervous wreck)?

I am with you totally.

As a newbie, I find the BS sometimes hard to stomach.

Also, when you hear the experts saying things like "you are going to lose most of the time" I find it quite frightening when actually playing.

The experts are certainly right about the math though, as my brilliant £700 profit is now down to £200, and I haven't actually 'done anything wrong'.

I went to casino with two mates the other night and although we all played to BS we lost nearly £800 between us over a six hour session.

Counting must be the way!

 

[tedloc]

Let me try again

OK, I'm an idiot. I can't figure out how to use the "quote" function. Sue me.

I read the replies. And I'm still not satisfied. I really do hate to sound like the bad guy, but am I the only one here that isn't rich? I have a moderate BR but seriously! I mean, I know that gambling in itself is risky, but I take the money and run the SECOND I get $100+ in profits. Like I mentioned in an earlier post, the last time I played in a casino I played for 8 minutes. My concern is quick profit and then flight.

Let's consider the consolations I received:

dacium:
Most hands are losing hands...Expect to lose often...

tedloc:
You are only a slight favorite to win (6-5)...

Sonny:
The only way to know for sure whether a play is advantageous or not at this particluar time is to count cards.

...So never doubling down for less is a good idea, huh? Maybe I'm the only one at this site that's more worried about losing $ than winning $$$$$$$$.

And to Sonny: Why would the BS charts even exist if the only way you could get an advantage is by card-counting? With that assumption, playing solely w/ BS would be ludicrous, and would always be frowned upon.

You go to the casino to gamble. Now some people are stupid when they gamble and some people are smart. I know a lot of people make crazy decisions and when you ask, they say "That's why they call it gambling". Most of us on this site, consider ourselves in the 'Smart' catagory. We would like to gamble when we have the advantage. Let me give you some examples. You've won three in a row at $25 and you feel 'lucky' so you bump your bet up to $100. Dealer gets Blackjack. Not a good move. Your are more likely to lose the next hand as win it. What you should do is wait until you get your cards. You have 11 dealer has 10. Double your hand because you are a 6-5 favorite to win. Put the money on the table when you have the advantage, either with your hand or with the positive count.
If two evenly matched football teams are playing and one team gets to play with 11 guys and the other with 10, who will you bet on. The smart bettor will bet on the 11 vs. 10 Remember, being a 6-5 favorite doesn't mean you will win all the hands but in the long run you will come out ahead, with twice to money, if you double.

 

[ScottH]

The experts are certainly right about the math though, as my brilliant £700 profit is now down to £200, and I haven't actually 'done anything wrong'.

You did something wrong. You went back to the casino only playing BS.

 

[TinaSparx]

You did something wrong. You went back to the casino only playing BS.

Fair answer there mate!