face-up vs. face-down

EasyRhino

EasyRhino

Well-Known Member
#1
#1
So, a local casino has started offering double deck games, some face up, some face down. Both out of a shoe and with identical rules and penetration (H17 DAS no surrender).

How much additional edge would a counter get at third base by seeing all the cards before making his play, as opposed to whatever he'd see during a pitch game?

My hunch is the difference is negligible, but I didn't see the numbers anywhere.
 
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shadroch

Well-Known Member
#2
#2
QFIT has said he was going to look into this when he gets a chance.
In the face up game,you will have many more chances to interact with other players hands,so there is a definite advantage to playing the face up game. I just don't know how to quantify the advantage you gain.
 
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eddiejenkinson

Member
#3
#3
EasyRhino said:
How much additional edge would a counter get at third base by seeing all the cards before making his play, as opposed to whatever he'd see during a pitch game?

My hunch is the difference is negligible, but I didn't see the numbers anywhere.
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Wouldn't it be the same?

Just say there are 4 players.

Third base you see 3 hands first, plus dealers from previous round.

If you play on first shoe. You will see 3 hands plus dealers from previous round first.

If you play second shoe, you will see 1 hand played before yours, plus 2 from the previous round. And of course the dealers.

And so on

Doesn't this show that it must be the same?
 
Automatic Monkey

Automatic Monkey

Banned
#4
#4
I'd play the face down game. If you are shifty, you will be able to see a majority of your neighbors' cards as they lift them, and of course there's the counting-by-inference strategy.

One thing you can do in a face down game that you can't do face up is overdraw at the end of bad shoes, to force a shuffle instead of dealing another round. I wouldn't do it more than once per dealer per night, but it is valuable, almost like a preferential shuffle in reverse. A drunken oaf act helps. (I've been using The Method for this role most of my life!)
 
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shadroch

Well-Known Member
#5
#5
AM,
Do you think the ability to overdraw once a night is more valuable than interacting with the other players hands 5-10 times an hour?
 
jack.jackson

jack.jackson

Well-Known Member
#6
#6
Of course the # of players, has an effect on this condition. Personally, I enjoy face-up, especially since I use about 80-100 Indices, w/.67 pe.

If it happens to be face-down, w/ a full table, I would almost be compelled to use a system with a high BC. jj.
 
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duffytoo

Member
#7
#7
If given a choice, take face up

Face up will always allow you to see all the cards and make counting quite easy. Whereas, some older dealers will often pickup cards thrown in by players that break and purposely hide them from players they think (or know) are counting. Even if they do the hurried flash to show the table, as they are supposed to, it is so hurried that you may not see it and even if you do, only one card may be exposed to you.

I'll take the face up every time.

good luck
 
Doofus

Doofus

Well-Known Member
#8
#8
duffytoo said:
Face up will always allow you to see all the cards and make counting quite easy. Whereas, some older dealers will often pickup cards thrown in by players that break and purposely hide them from players they think (or know) are counting. Even if they do the hurried flash to show the table, as they are supposed to, it is so hurried that you may not see it and even if you do, only one card may be exposed to you.

I'll take the face up every time.

good luck
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It doesn't make any difference to me. Face up I count them as they are dealt. Face down, I count first the dealer's up card, then each card dealt face up, then each couplet as they are turned over at the end of the hand. There's no real difference except for possibly if you're sitting at third base and want to base your decision on your hand based on the current count, then face up would be better. But there's precious little difference.
 
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shadroch

Well-Known Member
#9
#9
Do you ever try to interact with other players hands? In the course of a weekend,I'll find myself buying at least a dozen Aces from people reluctant to split their Aces,or a few other hands. Can't do that in a face own game.
 
Doofus

Doofus

Well-Known Member
#10
#10
shadroch said:
Do you ever try to interact with other players hands? In the course of a weekend,I'll find myself buying at least a dozen Aces from people reluctant to split their Aces,or a few other hands. Can't do that in a face own game.
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No, I never try to horn in on other player's hands. I know that many APs do, but it's just not in my character. Moreover, I prefer playing heads-up in off hours, which reduces my opportunity to do what you're describing.
 
jack.jackson

jack.jackson

Well-Known Member
#11
#11
Doofus said:
No, I never try to horn in on other player's hands. I know that many APs do, but it's just not in my character. Moreover, I prefer playing heads-up in off hours, which reduces my opportunity to do what you're describing.
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Not to mention, it does'nt matter if it's face-up or face-down as long as it's heads up. That is of course your into mucking:angel:
 
K

Kasi

Well-Known Member
#12
#12
Doofus said:
There's no real difference except for possibly if you're sitting at third base and want to base your decision on your hand based on the current count, then face up would be better. But there's precious little difference.
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I'd agree with you and think for that reason you'd be better off at 3rd. No idea how much extra but in DD where playing departures play a larger role in overall adv, (I think) maybe enjoying that slightly better overall pen avg than 1st base for playing departures should be worth something anyway.

I think it would benefit everybody compared to a face-down game.

I just can't figure why a casino would offer both.
 
EasyRhino

EasyRhino

Well-Known Member
#13
#13
Kasi said:
I just can't figure why a casino would offer both.
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It's either a weird experiment, or they're just trying to save money on card-replacement expenses.

Almost as weird as Mirage's face-up pitch game. Which I still can't wrap my head around (but don't mind playing).
 
K

Kasi

Well-Known Member
#14
#14
EasyRhino said:
It's either a weird experiment, or they're just trying to save money on card-replacement expenses.

Almost as weird as Mirage's face-up pitch game. Which I still can't wrap my head around (but don't mind playing).
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Now it makes sense they can't afford cards after what you've done to them lol.

My only other thought but I think we went thru this before maybe is that it's one of those fake DD games.

Maybe so noone touches the cards, hands per hour - who knows lol.
 
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chichow

Well-Known Member
#15
#15
EasyRhino said:
It's either a weird experiment, or they're just trying to save money on card-replacement expenses.

Almost as weird as Mirage's face-up pitch game. Which I still can't wrap my head around (but don't mind playing).
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TI is also face up pitch
 
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rukus

Well-Known Member
#16
#16
EasyRhino said:
It's either a weird experiment, or they're just trying to save money on card-replacement expenses.

Almost as weird as Mirage's face-up pitch game. Which I still can't wrap my head around (but don't mind playing).
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how is pen on the mirage game these days? around 55-60%?
 
EasyRhino

EasyRhino

Well-Known Member
#17
#17
Haven't been in a few months. Seemed a skosh better then though, like 66%. Then again, I got the vibe that the game was just one big card-counter-ambush, so I didn't play very long.
 
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rukus

Well-Known Member
#18
#18
EasyRhino said:
Haven't been in a few months. Seemed a skosh better then though, like 66%. Then again, I got the vibe that the game was just one big card-counter-ambush, so I didn't play very long.
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yup, i got that impression too when i dropped by last labor day. havent been back since.
 
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