fallout from a big win

creeping panther · Apr 23, 2011

KJ busted

That is just one of the strangest things I have heard of as far as back-offs. I never tell anyone what they should have done, no more than I appreciate a players commenting on the 6 that just came out after surrendering a 15! So I am not gonna second guess your actions.

But this incident,,:yikes:,,,,

,,I hope you re-think the entire situation and apply every possible angle to it. Dig?

CP

kewljason · Apr 23, 2011

creeping panther said:

It is ok to tell someone what they should have done, when they ask you.

And yes I am rethinking a lot of things right now. That was the whole purpose of my post, to get some feedback and percpective from other players. Otherwise posting about it only serves a negative purpose. So I hope you will reconsider "telling someone what they should have done", if not in public, then privately, as I value your opinion.

zengrifter · Apr 23, 2011

KJ - Your pattern of always leaving after the high bets shoe does not serve you over time. This is why I advocate paying the small price of making big bets off the top of the new show whenever you end a shoe with big bets. zg

Shoofly · Apr 23, 2011

zengrifter said:

It depends on your location. If you have to drive for miles to the next casino, then this is the way to go. If there is a casino next door, why pay that price?

kewljason · Apr 23, 2011

zengrifter said:

I disagree with your assessment, Mr Zg. My average earnings come out to roughly $65 per 100/hands played, some games are as low as $50, other opportunites in the $75 range, but average is about $65. rather than exiting after a high count shoe with top wagers, if I was to place 2 top wagers at the start of a new shoe at say a .55 percent disadvantage that would cost me $4.40. If I did that 3 times per 100/hands the cost of this single cover play would be $13.20. 20% of my expected win. That is way to high and totally unacceptable a cost to me.

There is also no real way to absolutely confirm that I am counting if they only see wagers increase and never decrease. They may suspect, but can they absolutely confirm from a single session of only increasing wagers that I am not a progression player or a player that simply bumps up during wins or bumps up chasing losses?

If I am too the point that they I am becoming too memerable, then I need to do a better job of spreading my play around. Vegas has a hundred casinos, 3 shifts a day 7 days a week. That is the sole reason I live here. Maybe I have just been being too lazy!

(please forgive the embarrassed smile, Canceler...

)

Bojack1 · Apr 23, 2011

Sharky said:

I 100% agree with this. Playing paranoidly conservative in Vegas with med to low stakes is foolish. If you are keeping max bets usually below $500, you are not a big fish in most of the stores you play, but you already know that KJ, just reiterating it.

And there is never a reason to even share 1 drink with any PB or manager, especially one you don't know. If they "bump" into you somewhere, well then you're just leaving. No reason to give them anything good or bad. As a professional player they are noise, and they don't need to be personalized. Its fine to know their face if it suits your plans, but their story is inconsequential, even if they are letting you "in" on what they know. They may be nice people, they may love their family, and they may not even care about you as an AP, but that doesn't mean those that they answer to don't. It doesn't mean that a casual comment to the wrong person may cause some real problems. I would rather be thought an AP and say nothing, then say something and remove all doubt. There are stories of "accidental" meetings from many AP's that I know. It has never been a good thing. Not always bad, but never good.

Canceler · Apr 23, 2011

Yep, I’m keepin’ an eye on this…

kewljason said:

:laugh::laugh:

It’s fine if you use it properly. Being embarrassed about being lazy, even though you were probably kidding about that, seems proper.

kewljason · Apr 23, 2011

Bojack1 said:

I 100% agree with this. Playing paranoidly conservative in Vegas with med to low stakes is foolish. If you are keeping max bets usually below $500, you are not a big fish in most of the stores you play, but you already know that KJ, just reiterating it.

And there is never a reason to even share 1 drink with any PB or manager, especially one you don't know. If they "bump" into you somewhere, well then you're just leaving. No reason to give them anything good or bad. As a professional player they are noise, and they don't need to be personalized. Its fine to know their face if it suits your plans, but their story is inconsequential, even if they are letting you "in" on what they know. They may be nice people, they may love their family, and they may not even care about you as an AP, but that doesn't mean those that they answer to don't. It doesn't mean that a casual comment to the wrong person may cause some real problems. I would rather be thought an AP and say nothing, then say something and remove all doubt. There are stories of "accidental" meetings from many AP's that I know. It has never been a good thing. Not always bad, but never good.

thanx Mr Bo. That last line is a great summation and one that will be easily remembered.

itrack · Apr 23, 2011

At the local casino that I play at, the casino manager will sometimes do a walkthrough of the pit so see how things are going/ talk with the players. After a few of these occasions he started to remember me and my friends, since we were regularly the biggest bettors in the casino (its a small place

). A few weeks later, he sees one of the guys working at his part time,minimum wage job and starts talking to him there. If I remember correctly, they didn't really talk much about gambling, but he's gotta wonder why one of the biggest players at his casino is working at such a shitty job when he is winning several months paychecks in 1 night lol.

Dyepaintball12 · Apr 23, 2011

KJ that is the craziest story of a back-off I have ever heard!

The only time I ever encountered a PB outside of a casino was when I was essentially backed-off at a casino in the Midwest by this guy and then later that night I see this same PB playing BJ at a casino down the road. I watched his table and yes, he was counting.

I also agree with the post that not all PBs are mean. I have found many PBs to be very nice, especially most of the staff at Harrahs LV!

zengrifter · Apr 23, 2011

Shoofly said:

Because over time of repeated visits the pattern will be recognized, videos will be reviewed, and the jig is up.
And the price for a couple of big bets OTT is extremely small. zg

zengrifter · Apr 23, 2011

kewljason said:

I think you did the math wrong. I don't think it would average 3 hands per 100. IF only one shoe in 5-6 resulted in big bets, then the cost would be less than $3.00 per 100 hands.

kewljason said:

Wrong - its NOT a single session. Over time you are frequenting repeatedly. Many of the clubs you milk use post-play video assessment.

kewljason said:

Vegas may have 100+ casinos, but I suspect that the bulk of your best play is in MAYBE 30 of them (at best). zg

zengrifter · Apr 23, 2011

itrack said:

Not at all. He would see the player as a loser.
And the pit mentality would never expect to find a BP/counter in a low wage job. zg

eandre · Apr 24, 2011

I have not returned to that location since the event, but that didn't stop the fallout from the event. Last evening I was backed off. About 2 miles from the casino. Has anyone ever encountered such a backoff, or I guess more accurately, a warning, in a setting away from the casino?

[/QUOTE]

KJ- You actually received a warning. I am only speculating but I would bet that you over exposed yourself by staying too long or playing too often at that property. Anyone good will be evaluated rather quickly regardless of how good you think your cover is. Once you move into the big leagues and start playing $300-$500+ hands, every property takes notice. They either tolerate a counter or back them off based on their assessment of what damage the counter may inflict. With the current economy, they may even bounce green chip players if they get careless. Look, a counters betting ramp is easy to spot. Don't you spot counters all the time??? Keep the play short and spread your play around to several properties. Over the years I have seen too many APs loose their ability to earn money due to back offs and bannings and end up playing at local joints grinding all day long. Learn from the lesson.

zengrifter · Apr 24, 2011

eandre said:

Look, a counters betting ramp is easy to spot. Don't you spot counters all the time??? Keep the play short and spread your play around to several properties. Over the years I have seen too many APs loose their ability to earn money due to back offs and bannings and end up playing at local joints grinding all day long. Learn from the lesson.

I think Kewl is a bit beyond the novice-level advice you proffer. zg

Sucker · Apr 24, 2011

kewljason said:

I have also been "backed off" in similar fashion, and more than once. Usually it's something like a low-level floorman warning me that the big bosses are getting very suspicious of me, and asking me to please not play in HIS pit anymore; because HE could end up getting heat for NOT backing me off. I always accommodate their request to stay away while THEY are on duty, and I thank them for the heads-up. (And of course, I would never actually outright ADMIT to anything - but when you're actually MADE, and they've made it CLEAR that they're on to you, there's no use in insulting their intelligence by trying to act like you have NO clue what they're talking about)

One time, after a grueling 8 hour TNT session, I even had the floorman follow me out to the parking lot (he was getting off work at the same time I was leaving); and compliment me as to my reading skill. He informed me that he had figured out the play within the first hour, then he THANKED me for identifying one of his weak dealers for him, and assured me to not worry;HE wasn't going to drop a dime on me, as long as I stayed off of HIS shift. :grin:

Some of these guys are people too....

paddywhack · Apr 24, 2011

horse_johnson said:

If playing rated (under your true identity) the pit definitely knows where you live. I'm, for the most part, honest in my local store about my outside life so there are many that could track me down. Always pays to be cautious and make sure the home is secure.

Automatic Monkey · Apr 24, 2011

kewljason said:

I wasn't going to say anything if you didn't. Do you think...

?

kewljason · Apr 24, 2011

Automatic Monkey said:

I knew your silence was just killing ya. :laugh: I actually had you in mind when I wondered if anyone had slept with any female pit people attempting to get an advantage.

Figured that might be in your bag of tricks. (so to speak) :laugh:

Automatic Monkey · Apr 24, 2011

kewljason said:

Oh I have gone sexual with female PC's but no actual fornication. Depending on how it is done, I can either endear myself to her or keep her as far away from me as possible.

fallout from a big win

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