First Backoff

ihate17

Well-Known Member
#21
ratholing

First off, if you color up say, $3,000 and go immediately to the cage, then cash out about $3,000. If you ratholed a few hundred, cash them in later, no one calls the pit on a couple of hundred in green unless you are playing at a place similar to the Western.

Do not rathole black, purple or yellow chips. At most places the pit is keeping track, best they can, of these chips. If by chance they see you putting some in your pocket, they may give you credit for every chip they can not account for. Putting them in your pocket is really no big deal, people do this all the time, but expect to get credit for them.

So what do you rathole?
It depends upon your betting level and your reason for ratholing. I believe you will never hide a big win or loss from the pit and there is no reason to really try. I use the technique of ratholing mainly in several casinos where I play often and am known. Here the most dangerous thing for my longevity is lifetime win. My act has worked there long enough that the computer saying that I have taken X from them is a concern. Now if I know I am making $100 per hour in this place my goal is very simple. I need to rathole win, lose or draw, at least $125 per hour, so in the long run my lifetime will show a loss.
None of these casinos really track green chips. People come in with green or leave with green constantly. Ratehole green or if you are a red chip player, rathole red.
Some of the best times are when players leave and color up. Guy gives the dealer $300 in green and puts his additional couple of green chips in his pocket, you can pocket two chips easily. New player comes in with chips, throw one in your pocket. Do not keep your chips in organized, exact piles. Hard for the pit to know if you have 17 or 18 chips in a pile. Go to the restroom leaving your chips on the table, take a green for company.

Do not get caught! The pit understands that some players will pocket high denomination chips. They are just putting them in their so called vault, saving them. But if the pit sees you pocket green or red, they will wonder why. It is up to you to figure out when to do this and how not to get caught.

ihate17
 

ihate17

Well-Known Member
#22
Rfid

Kasi said:
I think they have a really good idea of what u've won and a very exact inventory of all chips.

And I'd be at least a little careful of having others cash ur chips because of money-laundering issues. Everything in moderation.

My wife ratholes green chips all the time. And she's actually been called out on it a couple times when cashing in.

Do RFID chips actuallly exist?
RFID chips certainly do exist. That does not mean that they can easily read the chips in your pocket. The majority of casinos that have RFID chips have them in high denomination chips and others that might have them in all chips have readers connected to your betting circle. You might see a table where near the shoe there is a fairly large button that the dealer will hit before dealing the next hand. That is a RFID reader and it is recording the exact amount you bet on that hand. Generally used to compute comp level but with the additional equipment it can also compute win/loss, which can negate the advantage of ratholing.

ihate17
 

letsdothis21

Well-Known Member
#23
yup, the casino I am going to on Tuesday has RFID chips and they hit the button before each hand - is that bad for a card counter?

Is it easier for them to find out you are spreading too much?
 

ihate17

Well-Known Member
#24
They still need more info

I have looked at the computer screen at a casino where every chip is RFID. The screen showed my low, high and average bets, so it in fact gave them a strong idea of my bet spread. Of course, if you look at the other players in a casino you will find many a non counter with big or even extremely huge spreads, so they need more info.
Someone still needs to count down the stack and correlate this to your deck spread. They can easily do this on review if they wish and you might have a problem when you return, but much depends on the casino, your bet level, their tolerance level and just how concerned their pit and eye personel are with cardcounters.

It is another tool. It can be used to judge your comp level, it can be used to identify a possible advantage player, it is used to stop bet cappers and it is used to stop counterfeiters. As with all tools, it is no better than those using it.
Stopping counterfeiters and casino execs worry that they might be giving out too much in comps are the main purpose.

ihate17

ihate17
 

Mimosine

Well-Known Member
#25
ihate17 said:
You might see a table where near the shoe there is a fairly large button that the dealer will hit before dealing the next hand. That is a RFID reader and it is recording the exact amount you bet on that hand.
now i know what that button does.....

some mindplay tables i believe can tell what bet you have and what bet you place for the dealer without the button thing. i think that must just be old technology. the new mind play tables allegedly have 7 'cameras' or scanners built into them to take a snap shot of what you are betting for comp purposes. they might be rfid they might be visual.
 

ColorMeUp

Well-Known Member
#26
ihate17 said:
RFID chips certainly do exist. That does not mean that they can easily read the chips in your pocket. The majority of casinos that have RFID chips have them in high denomination chips and others that might have them in all chips have readers connected to your betting circle. You might see a table where near the shoe there is a fairly large button that the dealer will hit before dealing the next hand. That is a RFID reader and it is recording the exact amount you bet on that hand. Generally used to compute comp level but with the additional equipment it can also compute win/loss, which can negate the advantage of ratholing.

ihate17
The Wynn has RFID chips.....but they don't read your bet at the table.

Each cashier's window has a little black thing on the counter that you put the chips on. The cashier counts them out manually but their computer screen also tells them how much money is there from the computer reading the RFID. Guess it's just like a scanner at the supermarket telling the cashier how much each item costs.......
 

letsdothis21

Well-Known Member
#27
ihate17 said:
I have looked at the computer screen at a casino where every chip is RFID. The screen showed my low, high and average bets, so it in fact gave them a strong idea of my bet spread. Of course, if you look at the other players in a casino you will find many a non counter with big or even extremely huge spreads, so they need more info.
Someone still needs to count down the stack and correlate this to your deck spread. They can easily do this on review if they wish and you might have a problem when you return, but much depends on the casino, your bet level, their tolerance level and just how concerned their pit and eye personel are with cardcounters.

It is another tool. It can be used to judge your comp level, it can be used to identify a possible advantage player, it is used to stop bet cappers and it is used to stop counterfeiters. As with all tools, it is no better than those using it.
Stopping counterfeiters and casino execs worry that they might be giving out too much in comps are the main purpose.

ihate17

ihate17
sounds good, I was spreading 1-10 on the $2 table so don't know if they cared or not, now I will be playing at the $3 table since I hated the 8D shoe for the $2 min.
 

Rspeirsmlb

Well-Known Member
#28
?

The Indian Casino I play at doesn't use these kinds of chips...They count them and get manager verification etc at the counter...(more than $3k) I've noticed that alot of the casinos you all talk about are alot more "strict"? or rather more intense about shaving away counters....The pit seems to know me pretty well here...and little do they know the past few months I've been planning on hitting them up hard with counting in 2 months when I'm fully ready and trained. I can tell they don't use RFID chips also by the way the pit critters rate you.......I took someone's advice (maybe Sonny's?) about comp hustling and bet big ($300+) when they look, and once they turn around shave off a couple hundred and add green...Works pretty, I guess Indian casinos can be less knowledgable or just don't care?
 
#29
Rspeirsmlb said:
The Indian Casino I play at doesn't use these kinds of chips...They count them and get manager verification etc at the counter...(more than $3k) I've noticed that alot of the casinos you all talk about are alot more "strict"? or rather more intense about shaving away counters....The pit seems to know me pretty well here...and little do they know the past few months I've been planning on hitting them up hard with counting in 2 months when I'm fully ready and trained. I can tell they don't use RFID chips also by the way the pit critters rate you.......I took someone's advice (maybe Sonny's?) about comp hustling and bet big ($300+) when they look, and once they turn around shave off a couple hundred and add green...Works pretty, I guess Indian casinos can be less knowledgable or just don't care?
The small and remote Indian casinos will often have incompetents working in them, but you could find that anywhere else in the industry too.

You can get away with a lot in Indian stores but one thing to remember is that because they are immune from lawsuits, they can get away with a lot too and if you do something that pisses them off you can expect some abuse. US criminal law applies there but if they decide to confiscate your chips, falsely arrest you, tow your car from the parking lot etc. you will have little recourse in civil court.

Just something to think about if you find yourself getting heat, you may want to get out of there sooner than you would in a place that had legitimate oversight and justice.
 

Knox

Well-Known Member
#30
Automatic Monkey said:
Just something to think about if you find yourself getting heat, you may want to get out of there sooner than you would in a place that had legitimate oversight and justice.
What place is that with a money making casino around? LOL

Seriously, I thought that Vegas casinos pretty much owned the courts and cops. Money talks. I heard MS is better about that and I guess in AC you can't legally bar a counter although they have other ways to drive you off.
 

ihate17

Well-Known Member
#31
A few differences, Vegas, Indian Casinos

Knox said:
What place is that with a money making casino around? LOL

Seriously, I thought that Vegas casinos pretty much owned the courts and cops. Money talks. I heard MS is better about that and I guess in AC you can't legally bar a counter although they have other ways to drive you off.
Though, it may be true that Vegas casinos own the cops and some of the judges, recent history has showed they do not own the jury. If one were abused and filed suit against a Vegas casino, a civil jury seems to be the way to go.
In constrast at least in California, it appears that Indian casinos are more concerned with local public opinion and may be less likely to abuse a patron. The problem is if they did, your civl recourse would be tribal court?

ihate17
 

Kasi

Well-Known Member
#32
ihate17 said:
RFID chips certainly do exist. That does not mean that they can easily read the chips in your pocket. The majority of casinos that have RFID chips have them in high denomination chips and others that might have them in all chips have readers connected to your betting circle. You might see a table where near the shoe there is a fairly large button that the dealer will hit before dealing the next hand. That is a RFID reader and it is recording the exact amount you bet on that hand. ihate17
I also thought the technology could be used for identifying each individual chip out of the thousands and thousands that exist.

In other words, they might identify when someone else cashed in the chip u won.
 

bj bob

Well-Known Member
#33
Far out!

Kasi said:
I also thought the technology could be used for identifying each individual chip out of the thousands and thousands that exist.

In other words, they might identify when someone else cashed in the chip u won.
Wooooah! Now we're getting awfully close to entering the Zen Zone. Better start wearing your aluminum colander.:eek:
 

ihate17

Well-Known Member
#34
Why not, RFID is definately Zen Zone material

bj bob said:
Wooooah! Now we're getting awfully close to entering the Zen Zone. Better start wearing your aluminum colander.:eek:
When you start thinking about what other kinds of identity programs and other things RFID can be combined with, along with the implanting of chips into humans, it is Zen Zone material and unlike many Zen Zone threads, this is something very real.

We are facing a future with perhaps everyone implanted because we have to make sure you are legal and not a terrorist or something along those lines.
We are also facing a future where the government, I believe, wishes to faze out all regular forms of money and replace it with electronic transfers, such as debit cards. Again, it might be sold as a way to monitor and insure that funds are not being sent to evil groups, but in fact it will be a way to trace every cent, eliminate all unreported income thus increasing taxes and having more information and control over the population.

Welcome to the New World Order or better yet, call it actually living in the Zen Zone. All blackjack tables will have a card reader at each seat. Insert your debit card for X amount, punch in each bet. Each win will be a credit, each loss a debit. When you leave the table, 25% of your winnings are automaticaly deducted for taxes and a receipt is emailed to you. All the casino security in the world that has not yet been able to make card counting useless will no longer be necessary, this in itself will end counting.

ihate17
 
#35
ColorMeUp said:
The Wynn has RFID chips.....but they don't read your bet at the table.

Each cashier's window has a little black thing on the counter that you put the chips on. The cashier counts them out manually but their computer screen also tells them how much money is there from the computer reading the RFID. Guess it's just like a scanner at the supermarket telling the cashier how much each item costs.......
The Wynn casino does not have RFID chips at least not in the $100, $500, $1000 demonation. I just got back from their yesterday. I played and cashed these sizes and did not see any kind of scanning devices. Chips were just counted and money payed.
 

ColorMeUp

Well-Known Member
#36
InPlay said:
The Wynn casino does not have RFID chips at least not in the $100, $500, $1000 demonation. I just got back from their yesterday. I played and cashed these sizes and did not see any kind of scanning devices. Chips were just counted and money payed.
I had black, quarters and some red. You wouldn't have noticed a "scanning device." The reader was just a black thing built into the countertop of the cashier's counter that they put the chips on. There's really no way of knowing what it is and I wouldn't have known unless I specifically asked.
 

Canceler

Well-Known Member
#38
Try reading the whole paragraph

SilentBob420BMFJ said:
why? when you color up they will know how much you won anyways
Sonny said:
It also put your face right in front of the best cameras and brightest lighting in the casino. Play it safe next time. Never cash out after you’ve been backed off or barred. Never.
Man, if you keep doing this people are going to think you're just wasting space here.
 
#39
Canceler said:
Man, if you keep doing this people are going to think you're just wasting space here.
keep doing what? if you want to turn this into a flame forum then lets go.. seriously just because i didnt assume those 2 statements were related doesnt mean you have to attack me
 

Mimosine

Well-Known Member
#40
InPlay said:
The Wynn casino does not have RFID chips at least not in the $100, $500, $1000 demonation. I just got back from their yesterday. I played and cashed these sizes and did not see any kind of scanning devices. Chips were just counted and money payed.
did you disassemble a blackjack table while there?

then you don't know if they have RFID scanners.
They are in the table - NOT THE CAGE.
They don't need them at the cage, they are counting the chips with their eyes.

at the table, they use both their eyes and the rfid scanners - if installed.

i've never played wynn, duh, but if they had scanners, you wouldn't know.
 
Top