first or third base?

[karlmaj]

i always read from blackjack books that the third base is the best position for a counter because you can make the right decision based on the count. In third base, other players would not affect the count after you play so the dealer will play according to the count you left.
but i sometimes think that first base is also as good, because when the count is high and you make an increase in bet, you receive the cards first. in third base, before you get the cards, the face cards, also 10 and ace, just went to the first base. I know that third base is still better, but please convince me.

also, what is my risk of ruin if the ratio of my large bets to my whole bankroll is 1/100?
what if the ratio is 1/50?

 

[Ferretnparrot]

third base is the best, i trust the peopel that wrote the books.

Third base also has another advantage....your viewed as the "anchor-man" and if you choose to you can act liek an idiot and persued peopel to color up and leave because they blame you for the dealer not busting or getting blakcjacks since you suddenly decided not to hit, or suddenly started playing two hands, the bigger of an asshole you apear to be the more likely they are to hate you and leave the table leaving you with a longer exposure to a high count, all because you sat at third base and played anchorman. It may be argued that splitting tens is suicide but i get way too excited when i know that if i split my tens, everybody at the table is goign to color up and leave, which has happend to me many times, litterally everybody at the table....push all their chips in at once and creat a traffic jam of piles in front of the dealer.

 

[MartyAce]

Third base definitely.

You are able to make the best decision on your cards, such as index plays, but quite a few of them come up rarely and many times your not on a borderline for it, but sometimes you are. However, note that the bosses are somewhat educated in tendencies of counters and know that third base is their home. Mostly because they get the most information by the time they are to act and if they are slow at counting it gives them time to catch up before they have to act.

However, you should realize that most bosses aren't even thinking about that. I know a lot of counters try to give up all these camo plays to cover themselves up because they think ever look from the pit at them is bad.

You don't know the order in which the cards are coming out in positive count situations. Which is why you could argue both ways on where to sit so you can get the best cards. In my mind your position at the table doesn't really matter.

I personally like to sit in the middle of the table when I play. It allows me to use my peripheral vision to count the cards to the left of me right as the dealer is dealing the second card to everybody. This way if a boss was watching my eyes because he suspected me to be a counter it might not look as obvious. But once again, this is just one of those things that probably doesn't matter and would not be the deciding factor for a pit to boot me or not. Most people when playing blackjack look at every card anyways, so its not like you are standing out when you look at the cards as they are being dealt out.

 

[cardcounter0]

IT JUST DOESN'T MATTER -- maybe

Computer sims have shown from a purely counting standpoint, it doesn't matter, especially for shoe games. Study The True Count Theorem.

However, some seats are better than others.

Sometimes third base or first base will allow you to glimpse a hole card from a sloppy dealer. More rarely, a middle seat will sometimes allow this.

If you don't like making quick decisions, maybe first base is not for you.

Sometimes ploppys give third base a lot of heat for "stealing the dealers" bust card, but they can't keep track of and realize the same play from first base. So maybe third base isn't good because you track attention.

Or maybe third base is good because you CAN "steal the dealers bust card" and run card eating ploppys off the table with a bad play in a good count.

If tables are tight, and conditions crowded, a good seat selection might involve, "where can the cocktail waitress reach me the easiest?".

 

[Sandy Eggo]

Just from playing experience (no booklearning here -- yet), I've been in 1st with an unknow player in 3rd who was making good moves. He was playing 2x my bets. I'd play my conservative game and we'd watch the middle players (full table) and then he'd make eye contact with me when hitting something "you shouldn't" -- and then the dealer would still bust. [6D shoe, hit s17, machine shuffled, DAS....typical game]

LOVED playing with him. I nearly 4x my buy-in, ignoring the ploppies. Sure we lost a few, but they weren't the big hands.

Other days/times, same table -- I'll take 3rd so husband doesn't have to worry about a rookie 21yo showing up to play and screw with everyone. He plays well, but doesn't play well with others. Makes it hard to find someone on the table to work with just with eye contact to make 3rd strongest.

 

[Sonny]

but i sometimes think that first base is also as good, because when the count is high and you make an increase in bet, you receive the cards first.

Since the cards are in random order it doesn’t matter who gets their cards first. The probability of you getting the high cards is the same as everyone else’s. There’s a good discussion of this in an older thread with the very same title:

First base of third base?

also, what is my risk of ruin if the ratio of my large bets to my whole bankroll is 1/100?
what if the ratio is 1/50?

It depends on the game and your style of play. Theoretically you can design your bet spread to give you any RoR you want.

-Sonny-

 

[DonR]

Just like cardcounter0 said, from the card counting standpoint, it doesn't matter.

I still prefer the third base, for the reasons that some of you have mentioned here. It also has a little more leg room, at a crowded table.

However, sitting at the third, sometimes I notice a pretty big problem, with some dealers. When they bust the player at the first base, a lot of times I cannot see what the card was. The dealer's right hand is blocking my view and if the dealer scoops up the bust cards quickly (which they usually do), I never have a chance of knowing what the bust card was. Pretty bad for counting purposes. Sitting in the middle eliminates this problem alltogether.

 

[callipygian]

Here are two considerations that nobody has brought up in this thread. I personally don't consider either one, but some people might:

(1) Protecting your ability to spread to 2 hands in crowded conditions. Taking either first or third base but playing the 2nd betting circle often leaves the last betting circle free because nobody wants to cram into the corner.

(2) Playing third base gives you a few more seconds to count up the cards if you're slow at counting. Playing first base allows you to let your attention wander after you've made your play (for example, if you're backcounting an adjacent table while you're playing, which is really fun but extraordinarily taxing mentally).

 

[QFIT]

There can be a significant effect on results. See http://www.blackjackincolor.com/penetration10.htm

 

[jack.jackson]

There can be a significant effect on results. See http://www.blackjackincolor.com/penetration10.htm

Was this chart based on face-down games?

It seems to me, a SD face-down game, w/a full table, would have a much greater imapact, opposed to 6D, face-up, w/3 plyrs, in the seating position. Hmmm.

 

[FLASH1296]

Second Base is MY first choice, hands down - (no pun intended) ...

... because Pit Bosses always suspect 3rd base players of being CARD COUNTERS.

Imagine that ! You may as well have C.C. tattooed on your forehead.

Furthermore, you get a fine view of the table from the center.

Great if you are particularly nearsighted.

I never sit at first base. You need to act first if you perch there, and you may be under a bit of time pressure, especially if you are a newbie.

 

[rollem411]

Second Base is MY first choice, hands down - (no pun intended) ...

... because Pit Bosses always suspect 3rd base players of being CARD COUNTERS.

Imagine that ! You may as well have C.C. tattooed on your forehead.

Furthermore, you get a fine view of the table from the center.

Great if you are particularly nearsighted.

I never sit at first base. You need to act first if you perch there, and you may be under a bit of time pressure, especially if you are a newbie.

The disadvantage of playing in the center of the table is that you have to move your head a lot in order to see the cards. Recently, it has been fairly easy (especially with the 4D games going on at the Trop) to spot someone who is counting because their head follows every movement the dealer makes instead of waiting for him to finish and then grouping.

IT IS ESPECIALLY OBVIOUS AT A FULL TABLE...ALMOST AMUSING AND SAD AT THE SAME TIME. SOME KID WAS DOING IT TODAY AND I BELIEVE HE WAS BETTING BACKWARDS ALSO.

I used to follow every card so I could stay on top of everything, but I found that it is very obvious. If you are going to sit in the middle, act oblivious and then group. If you already do this, then keep up the good work.

 

[QFIT]

Was this chart based on face-down games?

It seems to me, a SD face-down game, w/a full table, would have a much greater imapact, opposed to 6D, face-up, w/3 plyrs, in the seating position. Hmmm.

The charts assume hand-held in pitch games and face-up in shoe games. Pretty much the rule. Although I have seen rare exceptions.

 

[creeping panther]

Seating

The seating position in DD games, face down, can have certain strong advantages, I do not believe it is irrelavant. In fact at times, often, the position can be crucial.

CP

 

[FLASH1296]

I disagree 100%.

I trained myself to view all of the hands without moving my eyes.

You can as well.

All you need to do is train yourself.

Practice using your peripheral vision.

 

[FLASH1296]

In Las Vegas at high-end stores, like The Wynn for instance, Double Deck Games are dealt face up.

 

[creeping panther]

Excuse me,

I disagree 100%.

I trained myself to view all of the hands without moving my eyes.

You can as well.

All you need to do is train yourself.

Practice using your peripheral vision.

but are you talking to me?

CP

 

[nottooshabby]

I disagree 100%.

I trained myself to view all of the hands without moving my eyes.

You can as well.

All you need to do is train yourself.

Practice using your peripheral vision.

Whenever I see or hear a phrase referring to "using your peripherals", I can't help but think of this scene :laugh:

 

[Ferretnparrot]

SOME KID WAS DOING IT TODAY AND I BELIEVE HE WAS BETTING BACKWARDS ALSO.

I hope that wasnt me, what was this kid wearing? I thought i played particularly heavy camo today compared to my usual "not giving a crap what the pc think" attitude toward the game.

 

[rollem411]

I hope that wasnt me, what was this kid wearing? I thought i played particularly heavy camo today compared to my usual "not giving a crap what the pc think" attitude toward the game.

He was wearing a tan sweatsuit with a shaved head.