From red to green chip player

T

twinturboguy

Member
#1
#1
Ok. I'm planning on advancing into a higher stakes level but I need more advice. Again, I thank everyone here for great information. Each of my sessions, other than one, have been successful. I come back home with around $150-$300 from 6-8 hour sessions playing single and double deck games.

My bankroll is sufficient for only about 200 units if I'm planning on using $25 chips.I figured that I might want to edge up to a green chip level but I don't wanna overstay my welcome at the casino considering this is the only good game in town. If I keep up my sessions playing with green chips, how do I manuever my way around these shifts without them noticing me? Being a red chipper, I barely catch their eye. But betting close to table max ($100-$200), will certainly make them look twice.

Am I ready?
 
S

ScottH

Well-Known Member
#2
#2
twinturboguy said:
Ok. I'm planning on advancing into a higher stakes level but I need more advice. Again, I thank everyone here for great information. Each of my sessions, other than one, have been successful. I come back home with around $150-$300 from 6-8 hour sessions playing single and double deck games.

My bankroll is sufficient for only about 200 units if I'm planning on using $25 chips.I figured that I might want to edge up to a green chip level but I don't wanna overstay my welcome at the casino considering this is the only good game in town. If I keep up my sessions playing with green chips, how do I manuever my way around these shifts without them noticing me? Being a red chipper, I barely catch their eye. But betting close to table max ($100-$200), will certainly make them look twice.

Am I ready?
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I wouldn't have less than 500 units, and I would prefer to have 1000 units. You should do a ROR calculation and see how you like the number. It will depend on what game you play, and how you play them, but I think 200 units will give you a fairly high ROR.
 
T

twinturboguy

Member
#3
#3
ScottH said:
I wouldn't have less than 500 units, and I would prefer to have 1000 units. You should do a ROR calculation and see how you like the number. It will depend on what game you play, and how you play them, but I think 200 units will give you a fairly high ROR.
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Yeah. In the long run, I might lose everything I have, but maybe it comes to that decision that in the shortrun I MIGHT get lucky for a good start. If I can happen to get to that point, I can start kelly betting from there for a long run profit. Again, I have to consider that luck has to be on my side on this one. Perhaps I should stick with the $5 dollar chips until I have more units to play with? With a risk of ruin more or less to a coin flip, is it worth flipping that coin to advance to a highstakes game?

If I stay with red chips with a $5-6k bankroll, I would most certainly have enough to keep my long run profit. Has anyone ever gambled a bankroll that much to making hundreds more in the long run? Or was it all a safe play for everyone?
 
T

twinturboguy

Member
#5
#5
supercoolmancool said:
If it is not safe play than you are not an advantage player. You are just gambling.
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Yes. I admit I took risks on the way through it but I took advantages too. From my previous threads, you can notice that I started my counting sessions with ONLY a fixed bankroll $500 dollars. I took the advice from everyone here and rely on the short run comings to get me started. Now my bankroll is $6000 without the trip expenses (gas, food, and breaks).

So do you still believe I only gamble into house advantage? Stating I ONLY gamble is a bold statement my friend. I practiced and practiced days on and even today I'm starting to learn advanced techniques such as holecarding and ace tracking.
 
Mikeaber

Mikeaber

Well-Known Member
#6
#6
TBGuy,

If $5 were the table minimums and your choice was whether to play a 200 unit bankroll or not play, I'd go along with short-term hopes and say "try it".

However, now you have a legitimate red-chip bankroll and can play at a low Risk of Ruin comfortably. Why "put it all on the line" to play green chip once more at that 200 unit BR where you are at a 35% to 40% ROR?

I think you'll notice that when it comes to ROR, experienced APs are very conservative.
 
S

ScottH

Well-Known Member
#7
#7
twinturboguy said:
Yeah. In the long run, I might lose everything I have, but maybe it comes to that decision that in the shortrun I MIGHT get lucky for a good start. If I can happen to get to that point, I can start kelly betting from there for a long run profit. Again, I have to consider that luck has to be on my side on this one. Perhaps I should stick with the $5 dollar chips until I have more units to play with? With a risk of ruin more or less to a coin flip, is it worth flipping that coin to advance to a highstakes game?

If I stay with red chips with a $5-6k bankroll, I would most certainly have enough to keep my long run profit. Has anyone ever gambled a bankroll that much to making hundreds more in the long run? Or was it all a safe play for everyone?
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My personal preference is to not take too large of a risk with my entire bankroll. I like to keep my ROR to 5% or lower, 2% or 1% is even better. I would only take a large risk if the money I was risking was not significant if I lost it.

supercoolmancool said:
If it is not safe play than you are not an advantage player. You are just gambling.
Click to expand...
Well, if you had a 1% advantage and you bet everything you owned on that bet it would still be an advantage play even though it's not a safe play. But of course risk management is a huge factor if you want to make money. Taking big risks are still advantage plays, but you dont want to lose all your money right away. You want to last long enough to actually realize that advantage. But the more risk you take on, there are corresponding larger rewards, so it really depends on how risk averse you are.

Me and supercoolman cool have both seen the wild negative swings that can occur on a regular basis, so I personally like to be more cautous with my ROR.
 
jimbiggs

jimbiggs

Well-Known Member
#8
#8
One thing you might want to know about the store you're playing at. You can stack up $100 in red and it's not a big deal. When you stack up $100 in green, the dealer has to call "checks play." This will draw a little more attention to your game. Just thought I would mention that.

On the SD game that you're playing, if you spread $25-$150 with a $6K bankroll using hi/lo, you're ROR is 21.07%.

Another thing to consider, with this being the best game in town, you don't want to make yourself unwelcome.

Just my thoughts. In the end, it's up to you.
 
Automatic Monkey

Automatic Monkey

Banned
#9
#9
twinturboguy said:
Yes. I admit I took risks on the way through it but I took advantages too. From my previous threads, you can notice that I started my counting sessions with ONLY a fixed bankroll $500 dollars. I took the advice from everyone here and rely on the short run comings to get me started. Now my bankroll is $6000 without the trip expenses (gas, food, and breaks).

So do you still believe I only gamble into house advantage? Stating I ONLY gamble is a bold statement my friend. I practiced and practiced days on and even today I'm starting to learn advanced techniques such as holecarding and ace tracking.
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Your call. How would you feel if you lost your $6K? If the answer is "No big deal, I earn enough to replace it in a few months" then I'd suggest doing it. If you earn that much at your real job then playing for red chips is a waste of time for you. On the other hand, if you are on a fixed income you have to think long and hard about what losing that money will mean to you, and exactly what the risk of that happening is. It's usually higher than you think.

A good benchmark for a part-timer is to calculate your win rate, and ask yourself if you are willing to work for that kind of wage, plus risk.
 
sagefr0g

sagefr0g

Well-Known Member
#10
#10
twinturboguy said:
Yes. I admit I took risks on the way through it but I took advantages too. From my previous threads, you can notice that I started my counting sessions with ONLY a fixed bankroll $500 dollars. I took the advice from everyone here and rely on the short run comings to get me started. Now my bankroll is $6000 without the trip expenses (gas, food, and breaks).
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same story here i started with $300 and now have a little over six grand. i'd love to move up to green also but with just a six grand bankroll that took me over a year to build i'm not willing to take the risk it would mean considering the fluctuation one is going to face. i'm waiting until i have a sufficient bankroll before making the move to green chip play. one thing i have done is to play ten, fifteen and twentyfive dollar tables by only wonging in on them. thats i believe less a risk although fluctuation is higher.
best regards,
mr fr0g :D
 
EasyRhino

EasyRhino

Well-Known Member
#11
#11
I've also wonged into slightly higher limit tables if the count is high enough to where I'd be betting the appropriate amount anyway. It's handy if the lower-limit tables are currently full.
 
sagefr0g

sagefr0g

Well-Known Member
#12
#12
EasyRhino said:
I've also wonged into slightly higher limit tables if the count is high enough to where I'd be betting the appropriate amount anyway. It's handy if the lower-limit tables are currently full.
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exactly thats the idea as i see it. you go in at a given count that has the same or higher optimal bet as the higher limit tables minimum. good trade off.
two problems i see for an insufficiently bankrolled player trying to make it on higher limit tables are as follows:
one is put in the position of always overbetting ones optimal bet for ones bankroll and having to also deal with greater variance as a result of betting higher pressing ones risk of ruin way up.
also to begin with we would always prefer to bet zero units when ever we are not playing at an advantage. so even playing a red chip table we are starting out betting five dollars more on each waiting bet than we would prefer to lay out. but that is the premium we have to pay on each hand if we want to play blackjack. but if one is insufficiently banked for a table other than a nickle minimum table why would one want to pay five times the premium one has to pay on a nickle table in order to play a green chip table.
doing so just forces one to overbet on nearly every hand played and then when you would get to the advantage hands you are again forced to overbet there to make up for the overly high waiting bets you had to make.
best regards,
mr fr0g :D
 
C

Cass

Well-Known Member
#13
#13
twinturboguy said:
Ok. I'm planning on advancing into a higher stakes level but I need more advice. Again, I thank everyone here for great information. Each of my sessions, other than one, have been successful. I come back home with around $150-$300 from 6-8 hour sessions playing single and double deck games.

My bankroll is sufficient for only about 200 units if I'm planning on using $25 chips.I figured that I might want to edge up to a green chip level but I don't wanna overstay my welcome at the casino considering this is the only good game in town. If I keep up my sessions playing with green chips, how do I manuever my way around these shifts without them noticing me? Being a red chipper, I barely catch their eye. But betting close to table max ($100-$200), will certainly make them look twice.

Am I ready?
Click to expand...

Listen to AM's advice. How would it affect you if you lose your entire stake? Me personally- I started with 10k. I topped my bet at $100 ($10-100spread). After awhile I just started betting all green because it isnt worth my time unless i can make at least $40/hr+. I guess I like to GAMBLE, but im not devastated if i lose a lot. For the year i'm up 26k on blackjack, and im up 55k on a couple three card poker promos I exploited. I spent most the money I've made on bills and cars, but I make sure I have 20-30k lying around for a nice trip bankroll. The comps are a lot better at higher betting levels, you have to take that into account. You have to bet big to win big, but you have to have money to make money!
 
K

Knox

Well-Known Member
#15
#15
This whole risk of ruin concept is very nebulous anyway. I admire the way a couple of you guys have built your bankroll by over ten times. I have the skill but unfortunately made a few bad (learning decisions) on my 2nd run as a counter. I played some 1, 2, and 8-deck games with bad conditions when I had been preparing for an 6-deck game. I am up on the 6-deck game for sure but net of the bad sessions on the other games I am lucky if I am even.

In the next year I am going to duplicate that success (ten times the bankroll), starting next week. I'll start with $500 and track everything strictly. Wish me luck guys!

My suggestion on the red vs. green chip play: Take a $5 table any time you can get it. But if you bet only $5 you will probably have to keep your max under $100 (perhaps $75) or you will stick out. If you can get away with (and afford) that 1-15 spread you will have a significant advantage. On a really high count just stack a couple greens with 3-4 reds on top. I am thinking you need at least $10,000 in your bankroll to be betting $100 per hand on high counts. If you move to a green table you will have to bet $125 just to spread 1-5, which is not that great in a 6-deck game. You will be taking more risk with a lower expected return, which is a horrible tradeoff!
 
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H

hopson77

Well-Known Member
#16
#16
I know comps depend on the casino, and even more so on the crew in the pit, but what comps can you expect to get as a green chip player? I play in AC, which is pretty tough to beat, but the comps are OK, Borgata's buffet is really good ($28 per person) and my wife and I get comped after an hour or 2 of red chip play.
 
Automatic Monkey

Automatic Monkey

Banned
#17
#17
Knox said:
This whole risk of ruin concept is very nebulous anyway. I admire the way a couple of you guys have built your bankroll by over ten times. I have the skill but unfortunately made a few bad (learning decisions) on my 2nd run as a counter. I played some 1, 2, and 8-deck games with bad conditions when I had been preparing for an 6-deck game. I am up on the 6-deck game for sure but net of the bad sessions on the other games I am lucky if I am even.

In the next year I am going to duplicate that success (ten times the bankroll), starting next week. I'll start with $500 and track everything strictly. Wish me luck guys!

My suggestion on the red vs. green chip play: Take a $5 table any time you can get it. But if you bet only $5 you will probably have to keep your max under $100 (perhaps $75) or you will stick out. If you can get away with (and afford) that 1-15 spread you will have a significant advantage. On a really high count just stack a couple greens with 3-4 reds on top. I am thinking you need at least $10,000 in your bankroll to be betting $100 per hand on high counts. If you move to a green table you will have to bet $125 just to spread 1-5, which is not that great in a 6-deck game. You will be taking more risk with a lower expected return, which is a horrible tradeoff!
Click to expand...

Good luck with a $500 BR, you will need it!

The 3 pieces of advice I can give you are 1) Don't worry about cover or getting caught if you are spreading red chips in a shoe game. Very few places will sweat that kind of action. Get that spread up there! 2) Don't worry about 6D vs. 8D. Look first for pen and then for good rules, if you find good pen and good rules at 8D by all means play it, and 3) Wong out of negative counts! When the count goes negative, complain about your luck or a smoker or the table being too crowded and get up and go to the next table or to the bathroom/bar if you are at the end of a shoe. Not playing certain hands is the most powerful way to play, and if you are not using a true counted system you might want to switch to one because it makes Wonging in/out easier.
 
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