Funniest Arguement against Counters ever

[Tarzan]

All this money?

Hogwash! As if there are tons of teams with millions backing them all over the place, so many that it's hard to find someone playing that is NOT on a team and doesn't have at least a million or two backing them up... uhm... no. Your typical "menace to society" counter grinds out less than any casino has to worry about and that's the SUCCESSFUL ones. The real effect on the casino's bottom line is negligible when it comes to your average counter and casinos spend ten times more money on foiling those "evil counters" than they (the counters) make collectively. It's a joke, it's truly pathetic. Let me tell you the REAL reason the casinos wish to trip up any and all card-counters--- It's "the principal of the thing"! They will gleefully spend ten times the dollars that any counter can make to trip them up because "How DARE those assholes try to actually profit from US! WE are the only ones supposed to be making any money and doing any grifting and NOT any of the players---EVER! We will spend whatever it takes, sky is the limit to prevent even a few individuals from turning a profit here."

 

[UK-21]

I agree. I don't think it's about money, more about the principle of it. They'll spend whatever it takes, within reason, to identify those individuals who are able to identify when the HE has moved into the black and can capitalise on it, and then run them out of town (so to speak). Basically they don't like people who are bright enough to beat them at their own game taking a few pickings off of their bottom line.

I bet casinos lose more in capital asset depreciation every year than hard cash to card counters.

 

[tribute]

And what percentage of card counters and AP's out there are actually skilled enough to pose a real threat?

 

[WRX]

Hogwash! As if there are tons of teams with millions backing them all over the place, so many that it's hard to find someone playing that is NOT on a team and doesn't have at least a million or two backing them up... uhm... no. Your typical "menace to society" counter grinds out less than any casino has to worry about and that's the SUCCESSFUL ones. The real effect on the casino's bottom line is negligible when it comes to your average counter and casinos spend ten times more money on foiling those "evil counters" than they (the counters) make collectively. It's a joke, it's truly pathetic. Let me tell you the REAL reason the casinos wish to trip up any and all card-counters--- It's "the principal of the thing"! They will gleefully spend ten times the dollars that any counter can make to trip them up because "How DARE those assholes try to actually profit from US! WE are the only ones supposed to be making any money and doing any grifting and NOT any of the players---EVER! We will spend whatever it takes, sky is the limit to prevent even a few individuals from turning a profit here."

Funny thing, I have much the same attitude when I think someone's stiffed me or taken a cheap shot. Of course, the casinos and I have different definitions of "cheap shot."

 

[UK-21]

And what percentage of card counters and AP's out there are actually skilled enough to pose a real threat?

I think the real threat to the bottom line will always be from those who make a living out of it and thereby have to play regularly and consistently for reasonable amounts to make ends meet. The number of individuals who play BJ for a living, or to supplement one, will always be a minute percentage of those who walk through the doors of the houses of chance.

For those of us who do it for the crack - play occasionally, for modest stakes and walk away a few bob up at the end of a session (more often than not) - we're not a threat at all. Perhaps this is one reason why casinos in the UK don't tend to be paranoid about nailing card counters. Another may be that the additional costs associated with protecting their games could never be justified when considering the amount lost to the small number of people who take advantage of the fact that BJ dealt from a shoe can be beaten.

As I say I think it's about principle. There is one UK based contributor on this board who has been barred from one of the major chains in the UK. Not, I suspect as a result of the amount of £££s taken off the table (although he was a fair bit up for his six months play) but more for rubbing their noses in the fact that they offer a game that clever people can beat.

 

[johndoe]

Whether casual counters are a "real threat" is sort of beside the point.

If a casino recognizes that you're a drain on their resources (even a modest one), and not an expected net loser, it's a simple and appropriate business decision for them to back you off. Just like any business with a troublesome customer that's costing them $ - they'd all tell you to take a hike.

It does take some resources to pick off counters, of course, but I don't think much is really required, and it probably makes sense to their bottom line.

 

[21forme]

If a casino recognizes that you're a drain on their resources (even a modest one), and not an expected net loser, it's a simple and appropriate business decision for them to back you off. Just like any business with a troublesome customer that's costing them $ - they'd all tell you to take a hike.

That's BS. How often do buffets back off over-eaters or grocery stores back off people who use too many coupons or buy sale items only?

I've gone to Staples on occasion and only bought their "freebate" and $1 items. I've never had the manager ask me not to shop there again.

 

[Automatic Monkey]

That's BS. How often do buffets back off over-eaters or grocery stores back off people who use too many coupons or buy sale items only?

I've gone to Staples on occasion and only bought their "freebate" and $1 items. I've never had the manager ask me not to shop there again.

Slightly different, in that you are still a potentially good customer for Staples, because when they have a profitable item there that you need, you'll buy it. We will never be a profitable customer for casinos. It's not like one day we're going to forget about EV and start gambling. The problem is not exactly our specific behavior at the BJ table, but the way our minds work in general; we have the ability and the inclination to defeat them in everything we do inside their building.

 

[Jack_Black]

so fr0gman, are WE the predators and the casinos the prey, or are the casinos the predators and the ploppies the prey??

It's a food chain. casinos prey on the ploppies, APs prey on the casinos. We're top predators, vicious and ruthless. Ploppies are plant life that don't have a conscience being and thus are indifferent if the Casino deer graze on them or not. But we're the mountain lions that make the casino deer go into fight or flight mode every time they see us.

Also, I find that every casino is different, just as every business in the same category is different. Some casinos are hanging on for their lives and are super paranoid about counters. Others are too busy with something else to really focus on us. Some have huge tolerances, others do not. But I do know a dealer who told me an industry inside joke. "We call it gambling because if we called it losing, no one would come to a casino"

 

[tribute]

Help me on this one:

Every blackjack player hitting the tables at XYZ Casino during the next 60 days will be perfect basic strategy players. (No counters, no AP's, no ploppies) Once XYZ Casino realizes they are only achieving between 0.5% and 1.0% advantage, how long will it be before they start barring players, reducing comps, and implementing more counter-measures? Or will it even be a concern? Is a casino willing to keep its blackjack tables open for this margin?

 

[nottooshabby]

Slightly different, in that you are still a potentially good customer for Staples, because when they have a profitable item there that you need, you'll buy it. We will never be a profitable customer for casinos. It's not like one day we're going to forget about EV and start gambling. The problem is not exactly our specific behavior at the BJ table, but the way our minds work in general; we have the ability and the inclination to defeat them in everything we do inside their building.

On a related note, I once read (I believe it was Bill Zender) that AP's provide a "double whammy" for the casino . . . not only are they playing a +EV game, but at the same time are potentially occupying the seat of a patron who would almost assuredly be playing a -EV game (ploppy). This really rubs some folks on the other side of the table the wrong way.

 

[sagefr0g]

It's a food chain. casinos prey on the ploppies, APs prey on the casinos. We're top predators, vicious and ruthless. Ploppies are plant life that don't have a conscience being and thus are indifferent if the Casino deer graze on them or not. But we're the mountain lions that make the casino deer go into fight or flight mode every time they see us....

something like that yeah, thing is, what if it's similar to nature even more, even to the point where the health of the system is just as dependent upon us as the balance of the natural world is upon the predator and prey relationships that have evolved?

 

[Guynoire]

something like that yeah, thing is, what if it's similar to nature even more, even to the point where the health of the system is just as dependent upon us as the balance of the natural world is upon the predator and prey relationships that have evolved?

I think that in the casino envirorment AP's are less like a predator and more like a fungus. We don't really stalk and kill our prey, but rather sit in the casino's dark spots sponging off them and trying to stay unnoticed. If you shed light on us we'll recede but overall we're about as threatening to the casino health as mildew.

 

[WRX]

I think that in the casino envirorment AP's are less like a predator and more like a fungus. We don't really stalk and kill our prey, but rather sit in the casino's dark spots sponging off them and trying to stay unnoticed. If you shed light on us we'll recede but overall we're about as threatening to the casino health as mildew.

A certain well-known author recently used the term salamanders. (Referring only to counters!)

But that's all right. I like salamanders.

 

[StandardDeviant]

Pie charts, presumably.

Yes, but maybe with a few BAR graphs mixed in. :laugh:

 

[Jack_Black]

something like that yeah, thing is, what if it's similar to nature even more, even to the point where the health of the system is just as dependent upon us as the balance of the natural world is upon the predator and prey relationships that have evolved?

Of course, business evolves 10gazillion times faster than nature's version. Too many APs(top predators) would starve to death if there werent enough casinos to support them. But, there aren't that many GOOD APs and there aren't that many good casinos left either.

If you're talking about the microcosm as ONE casino, and that one casino can only sustain so many APs before shutting down, or the casino shutting down APs, then you're onto something.

 

[Jack_Black]

I think that in the casino envirorment AP's are less like a predator and more like a fungus. We don't really stalk and kill our prey, but rather sit in the casino's dark spots sponging off them and trying to stay unnoticed. If you shed light on us we'll recede but overall we're about as threatening to the casino health as mildew.

Gee, I was trying to romanticize our image. but if you want to paint yourself in that light, be my guest. I would think at least we would be blood sucking leeches or vampire bats, or a deadly virus. or something to that effect. Maybe casino heads view us as mildew or fungus. Wait....do you work for a casino?!:flame::flame::flame:

 

[Guynoire]

Gee, I was trying to romanticize our image. but if you want to paint yourself in that light, be my guest. I would think at least we would be blood sucking leeches or vampire bats, or a deadly virus. or something to that effect. Maybe casino heads view us as mildew or fungus. Wait....do you work for a casino?!:flame::flame::flame:

I just didn't like the predator-prey analogy it gives the casino too much credit. Prey run, hide and at least try not to get eaten, they don't invite AP's in with free rooms and buffets until they realize they're slowly killing them.

 

[prankster]

I just ordered "The Hot Shoe" (pretty good but pretty general, at least nice to be able to put faces with big names) and was watching it yesterday.

At one point the director is interviewing a man who works to catch counters, who I recognized from one of the History Channels documentaries on the MIT Team, and the guy was arguing why card counting is terrible.

"Is it fair for a card counter to come in and win all this money while Bob over here who works for Coke from Indiana is buying in with $100 and losing it all?"

"Card Counters should not be allowed to play! They take money from the casinos, and casinos have employees with families and pensions they need to fund. Casinos need their profit margins to remain in business!"

It was absolutely the funniest arguments I have ever heard against counting.

That guy is Andy Anderson who calls himself a casino detective. I believe he is now retired. He used to work for Griffin and he claims he chased "those M.I.T. guys around Vegas". I couldn't believe he could say that with a straight face!:joker:Also on "The Hot Shoe" Anthony Curtis suggests that for every AP there are hundreds and hundreds if not thousands of blackjack players who have no clue. Makes you wonder why the casinos even care about us!

 

[Automatic Monkey]

I think that in the casino envirorment AP's are less like a predator and more like a fungus. We don't really stalk and kill our prey, but rather sit in the casino's dark spots sponging off them and trying to stay unnoticed. If you shed light on us we'll recede but overall we're about as threatening to the casino health as mildew.

In the Old Testament, having mildew was a serious offense and they could tear your house down if you harbored it.

Card counters are more like vultures than anything else. We sit and wait for the house's edge to die of natural causes and then we eat. It's a steady business. Vultures are considered a disgusting animal (also unclean in the Old Testament) but they are harmless.