Going Pro with 100k

[KewlJ]

Here's why I disagree. You have NO right whatsoever to the expectation of "free speech" on that board, this board, or any other forum. You post there, here, or anywhere, at the host's pleasure. And whether you like it or not, if the host doesn't want your post to appear, for any reason whatsoever, he has a right to take it down. You, of course, have a right to boycott the site, write nasty things about it somewhere else, or whatever your heart desires.

But the erroneous idea that you can express any opinion you like on a website with a moderator or host is absurd. You have no such right whatsoever.

Don

And here is why I respectfully disagree with you Don. You were there when Blackjackinfo shut down under Ken Smith., but just in case you are not remembering clearly or your friendship with Norm wont allow you to remember clearly, let me refresh your memory.

The membership was looking for a new forum. Several temporary type forums popped up, but they weren't going to be the answer. Norm had a license and forum that he basically wasn't using. He offered it up. But many of the Blackjackinfo membership were very uncomfortable with that, many having dealt with Norm and had run-ins with Norm. At that point Norm publicly promised that his forum would be about freedom of speech and that he would hold no grudges based on personal experiences and moderate fairly.

What followed was Norm's forum was not about "freedom of speech" and he systematically got rid of almost everyone that he had had any kind of bad blood with over the years. JUST AS SOME PREDICTED.

So you can say that no one has the right whatsoever to expect "freedom of speech" on Norm's forum. BUT they do when he promised that! He promised that as terms of the membership giving him a chance. I personally made the first 6 posts at Norm's forum, encouraging others to join in. So you are wrong, Don that we don't have a right to expect "freedom of speech" and the forum to be run fairly. It was promised to us! Norm broke that promise and proved himself to be dishonest.

 

[KewlJ]

And let's talk about "free speech". T3 went on for several years about his super-duper count and how it allowed him to play to a 500% increase over traditional card counters while experiencing zero variance. He claimed to just hit his EV every few weeks.

So let's look at what we are talking about here. Card counters play roughly to a 1% advantage traditionally, if they are doing everything right. In current times, with lousy conditions, most probably don't see 1%, especially players employing a play all approach. But let's use that 1% as a base number. It has been well established that more complex counts can add what 10-20% to the players advantage. I personally believe that number too high as most proponents aren't allowing for a higher error rate that will erode some of that. But let's go with the high end of what is generally accepted. 20% increase or improvement in results. That would be 1.2% total expectation. This guy T3 was claiming 5%! Completely impossible claims that he made over and over and over for several years.

Norm is a math guy. He had to know these claims were impossible. A player wouldn't come close to 5% advantage from card counting if he had his freaking laptop sitting on the felt as he played! And like I said, this wasn't a one time claim....this went on for a couple years. So Norm afforded this person "freedom of speech" even though Norm himself, a math guy, knew this was impossible, yet he did not allow freedom of speech to those that challenged these mathematically impossible claims. Eventually he allowed YOU to challenge those claims, but only several years later. Initially he did not give those of us challenging these claims that same "freedom of speech", banning me and driving 2 other, known, highly respected, professional players from the forum for a time. What the hell kind of selective "freedom of speech" is that?

Now to his credit, T3, posting under a different handle, (dummy I believe), not to long ago on this very forum, admitted that those early claims were based on a very small sample size and as he accumulated a larger sample size those numbers came down close to reality.

Let me say that again, T3 to his credit, years later admitted his claims that I and others took exception to were wrong! And yet Mr. Freedom of speech, moderate fairly Norm, has done nothing to address the situation that he created. So you can defend him, Don. We ALL expect you to defend him, but it doesn't hold water. Promises were broken and Norm has proven himself to be a liar with and agenda!

 

[KimLee]

I have serious reservations about ... already quit your job.

Don't quit your job until you have saved a decent BR. Just save session bankrolls and lose them until you hit a runaway positive streak. Poker players are more aggressive than blackjack nits. Some high-level poker pros lived on ketchup and mustard sandwiches during losing streaks. This is foolish, because poker games get tougher as you increase limits. But there is merit to taking shots with high EV. Doyle Brunson said he would bet his entire net worth on a coin flip getting 10:1 odds, because he could eventually scrape up another million, yet would never find such a lucrative investment opportunity again.

 

[BoSox]

When I ran Don's Domain for several years, the same policy prevailed. And do you know what? I probably could count the number of posts that I deleted on the fingers of one hand. And do you know why? Because everyone who posted there knew the above rules and knew that if they posted personal insults or shit of any kind, I would delete the post five seconds later. So after a while, people got the idea that it was useless to post such crap, because it would never see the light of day.

I would think that everyone would adapt, learn and accept to live under those rules. Why? Because of the consistency of the enforcement of the rules, plain and simple, done professionally.

Everyone is lucky that Norm is the webmaster and not me, because I'd delete within a matter of seconds of seeing them, myriad posts that still stand on the site.

Don, you just proved my point! The fact is that there are at all times many, many insulting shitty posts that remained for years, as well as new ones every single day. Which ones do get deleted is anyone's guess. Although, members that have been around for a few years see some members well overextend the rules without anything being done while someone else gets shit on left and right. Sorry, but it is true and you know it.

 

[BoSox]

Don't quit your job until you have saved a decent BR. Just save session bankrolls and lose them until you hit a runaway positive streak.

I have no problem with that quote. Goes to my conservative upbringing.

 

[DSchles]

I would think that everyone would adapt, learn and accept to live under those rules. Why? Because of the consistency of the enforcement of the rules, plain and simple, done professionally.

Don, you just proved my point! The fact is that there are at all times many, many insulting shitty posts that remained for years, as well as new ones every single day. Which ones do get deleted is anyone's guess. Although, members that have been around for a few years see some members well overextend the rules without anything being done while someone else gets shit on left and right. Sorry, but it is true and you know it.

Unlike at other sites that used to have multiple, designated readers who had the right to delete or at least point out to the webmaster offensive posts, Norm runs a one-man show. And I would imagine it becomes very difficult, if not impossible, to read every post, every minute of every day. So some must slip by unread.

As for KewlJ, we all are familiar with the old saw that freedom of speech doesn't give you the right to yell "Fire!" in a crowded theater. Many posts that you allude to and that were taken down, contained personal attacks on Three or others, and those types of posts are specifically not permitted on the site (and shouldn't be). I won't get into details of why he, personally, was barred from the site, but Norm shared a great deal of history between the two of them, and there is ample evidence to warrant the barrings that were promulgated.

I really don't want to rehash all of this here anymore, but notwithstanding any "promise" that there would be free speech on a site, as a basis for membership, that simply cannot be an invitation to post anything you please. There must be guidelines and rules of decorum, otherwise, you descend into a cesspool of drivel. Again, I never had an iota of such a problem at Don's Domain , which was the epitome of civility, and contained nothing but posts about blackjack -- sometimes on a very high level. Just check the archives of Norm's site to get an idea.

Don

 

[KewlJ]

I guess I view the forum experience a little differently that you Don. I view it as a partnership between the forum owner/administrator/moderator and the membership that contribute and make the forum what it is... A FORUM, with exchange of ideas. In the absence of that, what you have is one person's opinion and view, in this case Norm. He might as well just run a blog expressing his views and thoughts.

I have benefited from reading the views, ideas, opinions of many different successful blackjack advantage players. The heavy handed running of a forum that you are describing and Norm engages in, is not conducive to enticing a wide range of successful players to participate and share their experiences, thoughts and opinions.

And it is this partnership that I am describing that Norm agreed to and promised in running his forum, and quite simply he has not lived up to that. And that is not a singular opinion, that is the majority opinion. Norm simply ran off many people, including successful players that he had any kind of a problem with. Zengrifter and Creeping Panther were the first. Who didn't know these two would quickly be eliminated from Norm's world?

Other people like Automatic Monkey refused to even join Norm's forum because the knew and were right. Remember Bojack....Very, Very successful high end, well know team player/manager/organizer for decades? He was so sure of how Norm would run his forum that he refused to participate under the name "bojack". He attempted to participate briefly under a new name to hide his identity while he saw how things played out and quickly withdrew altogether, when he saw things play out just as he had feared. I know because I communicated privately with him for a time.

Of course there are bound to be some personality conflicts. That is exactly why a forum shouldn't be run by one singular person, but rather a team, of several different moderators to be sure that one singular "king" doesn't allow his own personal conflicts to become part of the equation. Do you remember at the beginning, there was a second moderator, Richard Munchkin. Ask Munchkin why he bailed? Again, what you are describing Don isn't an open exchange of ideas, opinions and most importantly sharing of experiences (that was promised), and that is why most successful blackjack advantage players choose not to participate and you have only the small handful that form cliques and snipe at each other.

And I want to speak more to the T3 situation. That was in no way any kind of personality conflict, by any one involved. Well, at least it didn't start out that way. It was simply a case of members of the community calling BS on claims that were impossible and served to be misleading and damaging to newer players. I believe legitimate players and members have no only a right to do that, but a responsibility.

And I want to make crystal clear what I am talking about. There are many members on different forums that I am skeptical of parts or all of their stories or claims of success. Parts or all of their stories just seem unlikely to me based on my experiences. But I don't go calling out any one as a fraud or even share that I am dubious of their claims. ONLY when their claims are impossible according to the math do I have that right and/or responsibility. That was the case with T3. And that is why several legitimate known professional players spoke up and why such a calling out has to be allowed. The math dictates that. Otherwise the whole forum becomes alternative, twilight zone math.

 

[BJgenius007]

I guess I view the forum experience a little differently that you Don. I view it as a partnership between the forum owner/administrator/moderator and the membership that contribute and make the forum what it is... A FORUM, with exchange of ideas. In the absence of that, what you have is one person's opinion and view, in this case Norm. He might as well just run a blog expressing his views and thoughts.

I have benefited from reading the views, ideas, opinions of many different successful blackjack advantage players. The heavy handed running of a forum that you are describing and Norm engages in, is not conducive to enticing a wide range of successful players to participate and share their experiences, thoughts and opinions.

And it is this partnership that I am describing that Norm agreed to and promised in running his forum, and quite simply he has not lived up to that. And that is not a singular opinion, that is the majority opinion. Norm simply ran off many people, including successful players that he had any kind of a problem with. Zengrifter and Creeping Panther were the first. Who didn't know these two would quickly be eliminated from Norm's world?

Other people like Automatic Monkey refused to even join Norm's forum because the knew and were right. Remember Bojack....Very, Very successful high end, well know team player/manager/organizer for decades? He was so sure of how Norm would run his forum that he refused to participate under the name "bojack". He attempted to participate briefly under a new name to hide his identity while he saw how things played out and quickly withdrew altogether, when he saw things play out just as he had feared. I know because I communicated privately with him for a time.

Of course there are bound to be some personality conflicts. That is exactly why a forum shouldn't be run by one singular person, but rather a team, of several different moderators to be sure that one singular "king" doesn't allow his own personal conflicts to become part of the equation. Do you remember at the beginning, there was a second moderator, Richard Munchkin. Ask Munchkin why he bailed? Again, what you are describing Don isn't an open exchange of ideas, opinions and most importantly sharing of experiences (that was promised), and that is why most successful blackjack advantage players choose not to participate and you have only the small handful that form cliques and snipe at each other.

And I want to speak more to the T3 situation. That was in no way any kind of personality conflict, by any one involved. Well, at least it didn't start out that way. It was simply a case of members of the community calling BS on claims that were impossible and served to be misleading and damaging to newer players. I believe legitimate players and members have no only a right to do that, but a responsibility.

And I want to make crystal clear what I am talking about. There are many members on different forums that I am skeptical of parts or all of their stories or claims of success. Parts or all of their stories just seem unlikely to me based on my experiences. But I don't go calling out any one as a fraud or even share that I am dubious of their claims. ONLY when their claims are impossible according to the math do I have that right and/or responsibility. That was the case with T3. And that is why several legitimate known professional players spoke up and why such a calling out has to be allowed. The math dictates that. Otherwise the whole forum becomes alternative, twilight zone math.

Recently I got banned by Norm for one month. His reason is that "I posted conspiracy crap". I am not the ASM designer. Norm is not the ASM designer. Neither has the proof either way. Why should I believe ASM don't clump the cards based on his words? From reading posts from actual BJ players in all other forums, the majority are inclined to the theory that ASM did clump cards if needed, but not all the time. Only casino operators, book writers and software developers who don't put money in the line are saying ASM don't clump cards. But Norm insists that there is no room to debate.

 

[KewlJ]

Recently I got banned by Norm for one month. His reason is that "I posted conspiracy crap". I am not the ASM designer. Norm is not the ASM designer. Neither has the proof either way. Why should I believe ASM don't clump the cards based on his words? From reading posts from actual BJ players in all other forums, the majority are inclined to the theory that ASM did clump cards if needed, but not all the time. Only casino operators, book writers and software developers who don't put money in the line are saying ASM don't clump cards. But Norm insists that there is no room to debate.

Norm doesn't have an open mind about many things, the ASM, which many players know about and have experiences is just one of them. When these things arise, Norm's opinion is all that matters. I know for a fact that one of the top, most respected Table game players, who works out of Vegas, has been exploiting ASM for over a year now. ASM isn't one of his top pursuits or anything, he travels all over exploiting things. But when things are slow for him, he exploits a good ASM game. I mean this is a guy that if he chimed in, and said what he knows even Norm and his closed mind wouldn't question. But this guy won't do that. He likes to keep his plays to himself these days.

 

[LC Larry]

BJgenius says:

"Only casino operators, book writers and software developers who don't put money in the line are saying ASM don't clump cards."

I'm none of the above. Me and my crew are players, and we play a hell of a lot more than both you and Kewlj COMBINED! You're both full of shit!

 

[BoSox]

I'm none of the above. Me and my crew are players, and we play a hell of a lot more than both you and Kewlj COMBINED! You're both full of shit!

LC Larry could possibly be someone that rather not have the subject matter front and center.

 

[KimLee]

ASM don't clump cards.

IIRC correctly, studies showed that card clumping disappears even when cards are not shuffled.

How do I message you, Larry?

 

[Counting_Is_Fun]

That same type of agenda continues to this day. Some people are protected while others are silenced. Any thought-provoking thread is sliced and diced that unfortunately HURTS the reader from getting the full complete picture, and that is an agenda! Just yesterday there was some argument taking place among three members with all the usual insults and crap which I stayed out of. In another thread, I asked a newbie a relevant question which was important but apparently considered insulting and was deleted.

This type of thing happens all the time. I think it may be a deliberate attempt at controlling and putting extreme limitations on open opinions. I will never be silenced (everywhere) either way but often feel coerced into speaking up somewhere else that will result in a lifetime barring. There is a long history of lifetime barrings associated with that board and for a damn good reason being silenced. I much prefer to have my say, and my points said on that same exact board but get deleted immediately which amounts to a power grab and a waste of time.

Bosox and KewlJ speak truth, that is for sure. Nobody expects "free speech" to apply to forums...but we do expect moderators to be fair and. That doesn't seem to happen much anymore unfortunately.

 

[Raven]

Do you know anyone who could survive on 35k a year? I sure don't. Where would they have to live? In a tent in someone's back yard?

Considering it's only about $6k in real dollars, it's unbelievable I know but yea.. 18 to 34 year olds.

 

[BoSox]

BoSox,
I often don't agree with you on the forums. But I agree with you here. Norm has lost it. I won't be back to his site.
When I was a newbie, I thought wow he has cvcx etc and a forum. But that is a false notion.

What is the matter, you can't handle the first-grade discipline? This is easy compared to when I was in grammar school where the nuns used rulers with a steel tracing line on your knuckles. There is lifetime banned members who also share your sentiments, here is what one of them said yesterday: Quite good, Moses.

"
Many, many words in the thread might be summarized with a simple rhyme.

Norm is a pip
He doesn't give a shit.
Those who refuse to tow the line
Are treated as though they committed a crime."

 

[BoSox]

Counting is fun, do you remember this one?

 

[Hell'nBack]

This guy is a wife killer.

 

[Counting_Is_Fun]

Counting is fun, do you remember this one?

BoSox,
Ha good video there lol.
Really I've just had a few times when I allowed instigators like Freightman, Zeebabar, or newbie bait me into an argument because they don't like my answer. They insult me...and then after a few drinks I eventually tell them to fuck off, etc and then I get banned for fighting lol. So not major problems. But when one of the most prolific posters is Zeebabar's nonsense it does get frustrating.

 

[xengrifter]

This guy is a wife killer.

He is innocent unless and until proven guilty...
... (Yes, that also goes for OJ!)

On March 16, 2005, Blake was found not guilty of murder and not guilty of one of the two counts of solicitation of murder. The other count, the solicitation of Gary McLarty, was dropped after it was revealed that the jury was deadlocked 11–1 in favor of an acquittal. Los Angeles District Attorney Stephen Cooley, commenting on this ruling, called Blake "a miserable human being" and the jurors "incredibly stupid" to fall for the defense's claims.[22] Blake's defense team, led by attorney M. Gerald Schwartzbach, and members of the jury responded that the prosecution had failed to prove its case.[23] One trial analyst also agreed with the jury's verdict. Public opinion regarding the verdict was mixed, with some feeling that Blake was guilty, though many felt that there was not enough evidence to convict him.[24] On the night of his acquittal several fans celebrated at Blake's favorite haunt — and the scene of the crime — Vitello's.

 

[Raven]

the ASM, which many players know about and have experiences is just one of them.

Think it's dilution is what we're seeing. I think I know what you mean but I have seen it in hand shuffled games, as often. Of course my workaround is prolly pretty obvious but PM if you wanna know more.