Got to start sometime

[Rookie]

Well I've been giving my money away from years now playing Blackjack without fully knowing BS, so I decided before my next trip I would learn BS and the hi/low counting strategy and give it a shot. I've been reading through these boards for a few months now and have practiced the BS for the two games I plan on playing in Laughlin on my next trip in 2 weeks. After 2 months and about 10000 practice hands later I can now play those two games at perfect BS. I still have work to do with the counting (I can run a deck of cards in about 30 seconds and get the count right about 80% of the time). Just for some casino practice I went to the local Indian casino and tried to keep the count, which I found extremely difficult but not impossible (have no idea how accurate I was). (Not that the count mattered with the crappy rules..it was just for the sake of the practice). Anyhow my question is; I have a 2k bankroll and will hopefully be playing about 20 hours during my trip and if I find I can keep track of the count plan to spread 1-5 units, so what should my starting bet be? Do I have enough for $15?
One more question. How close is the call in BS of not doubling an 11 vs an A versus doubling? is this an index play when the count is high? seeing as you know the dealer doesnt have 21 after they look at the hole card? If it is an index play, at what count does it move to doubling?

Any help would be appreciated.

 

[shadroch]

Where in Laughlin are you planning on playing?With $2,000,you should skip Harrahs in its entirety,and the Edgewater and The' Belle are unplayable,as well.

 

[bluewhale]

Well I've been giving my money away from years now playing Blackjack without fully knowing BS, so I decided before my next trip I would learn BS and the hi/low counting strategy and give it a shot. I've been reading through these boards for a few months now and have practiced the BS for the two games I plan on playing in Laughlin on my next trip in 2 weeks. After 2 months and about 10000 practice hands later I can now play those two games at perfect BS. I still have work to do with the counting (I can run a deck of cards in about 30 seconds and get the count right about 80% of the time). Just for some casino practice I went to the local Indian casino and tried to keep the count, which I found extremely difficult but not impossible (have no idea how accurate I was). (Not that the count mattered with the crappy rules..it was just for the sake of the practice). Anyhow my question is; I have a 2k bankroll and will hopefully be playing about 20 hours during my trip and if I find I can keep track of the count plan to spread 1-5 units, so what should my starting bet be? Do I have enough for $15?
One more question. How close is the call in BS of not doubling an 11 vs an A versus doubling? is this an index play when the count is high? seeing as you know the dealer doesnt have 21 after they look at the hole card? If it is an index play, at what count does it move to doubling?

Any help would be appreciated.

play the smallest action you can play while reading up on BJ wherever you can.

the 11 vs A is a VERY close call, at AC rules it becomes a double at a TC of 1 using the hi/low count. i can tell you've been doubling here for years and i must say that if you want to make money, for any problem in blackjack you have to find the right answer. what i mean by that is that for any move there is the right move and all the other moves, there is always only 1 right move. your job is to research and find out which one that is and always play it. no hunches or anything like that.

 

[Mimosine]

If it is an index play, at what count does it move to doubling?

if you're asking this question, then you don't know hi/lo well enough.
whatever book you learned hi/lo from should spell this out in detail.

i'm a new counter and if i was in your shoes with a 2k bankroll i would start at $5 tables spreading 1-6 or 1-7. from what i understand your max bet should be around 1% of your total bankroll, which in this case would = $20. a 1-4 spread, however, will be at best a break even game in a 6D shoe, that is if your BS and count are perfect.

that's just what i would do, i'm by no means an expert, just a recreational player.

 

[EasyRhino]

If you want to keep the risk of losing that $2k to a small number, then your max bet would be about $20. Simple risk-of-ruin calculators are here:
http://www.qfit.com/blackjack-online-calculators.htm


I don't know what Laughlin conditions are like, but this might mean that you're playing almost as riskily as just plain ol' gambling.

And hey, it might work. When my bankroll was $2k, I was usually max betting $50, and managed to avoid busting out for several trips until an infusion of cash from online boosted the bankroll to a (hopefully) sustainable level.

As for 11vA, it's really close. In a H17 game, the BS is to always double that. Your EV typically changes from 11% to 12% (with twice the risk) with the move.

 

[Rookie]

Where in Laughlin are you planning on playing?With $2,000,you should skip Harrahs in its entirety,and the Edgewater and The' Belle are unplayable,as well.

My first choice is the 2 deck, h17. no DAS, no surrender game that I hear is offered at the pioneer. I've also heard (or atleast there used to be)a 6 deck, s17, DAS, no surrender game at the golden nugget. If you know of a better one please let me know.

if you're asking this question, then you don't know hi/lo well enough.
whatever book you learned hi/lo from should spell this out in detail.

I have not even looked at a book on any of the index plays yet, I still have work to do with just getting the hi/lo counting correct 100% and using the count to spread my bets. I was just asking because intuitively it seems like it would be a close call and even more so if the count was favorable, I was just curious as to what kind of count would be required before you deviated from BS on the 11 vs A. I too am just in it as a recreational player and will most likely never play enough to get to "the long term", just want to reduce the house edge as much as possible and if some day I can get to the point of being an AP, great.

Thanks for the info on keeping the stakes low and I shall continue my practice till the time comes to put it to use in the casino.

 

[shadroch]

Pioneer has good games. I may be mistaken but I thought it was SD,not DD.
Ramada has some very good games but is supposed to be quite quick with 86ing winning players that spread.Riverside had a good game.
I last played there in late Feb of this year,so things may have changed.

 

[Kasi]

My first choice is the 2 deck, h17. no DAS, no surrender game. I've also heard (or atleast there used to be)a 6 deck, s17, DAS, no surrender game at the golden nugget. If you know of a better one please let me know.

Ah, at last we know what games you're at least thinking of playing. Do you even know the BS for each game? They aren't the same you know.

It's not so much whether one game is better than another, it's how u play them.

So are you a "recreational player" as you say or a card-counter spreading 1-5?

I think you are a recreational player dabbling in counting so just go have fun and bet small in general until you know all the other stuff. If you think u have a good count go ahead and bet a little more. You'll come back with most of your bankroll intact.

If not, tell me at what count you would bet how much for each of the 2 games. Would u really spread 1-5 in both games?

Are you willing to lose your $2K 1 out of ten times? 4? At all?

And stop worrying about 11 vs A - apparently you don't know that in BS you would double in it 2D but not 6D. You're only going to see like 6 times in 20 hours anyway.

 

[Rookie]

Ah, at last we know what games you're at least thinking of playing. Do you even know the BS for each game? They aren't the same you know.

Indeed, those are the two games I have learned BS for.....if they were the same then I would of only had to learn one set plays.

It's not so much whether one game is better than another, it's how u play them.

Humm, well statistically one is definately better, besides that you have me stumped as to what you mean.

So are you a "recreational player" as you say or a card-counter spreading 1-5?

I think you are a recreational player dabbling in counting so just go have fun and bet small in general until you know all the other stuff. If you think u have a good count go ahead and bet a little more. You'll come back with most of your bankroll intact.

If not, tell me at what count you would bet how much for each of the 2 games. Would u really spread 1-5 in both games?

Your right I'm a recreational player trying to educate myself in BS and card counting to minimize the houses edge while having some fun playing.

I would bet the following spreads at the following counts (true count of course)in both games.
neg or 0: 1 unit
2-3: 2 units
4-5: 3 units
6-7: 4 units
8 up: 5 units

I have no idea if thats correct or not, its in some of my notes so I must of read it somewhere......I assume this is really determined by the risk of ruin your willing to assume and how large of a bet spread you can get away with.

Are you willing to lose your $2K 1 out of ten times? 4? At all?

To be honest I'm not worried about losing it, don't want to lose it but it wouldn't be the first or the last time I went home broke.

And stop worrying about 11 vs A - apparently you don't know that in BS you would double in it 2D but not 6D. You're only going to see like 6 times in 20 hours anyway.

I'm fully aware of the differences in the play for the two games, I was just asking out of curiosity as index plays are next on my list of things to learn. For the time being I will stick religiously to the BS for each of the games.

Good luck in your plays and thanks for the response.

 

[Kasi]

Indeed, those are the two games I have learned BS for.....if they were the same then I would of only had to learn one set plays.
Humm, well statistically one is definately better, besides that you have me stumped as to what you mean.
Your right I'm a recreational player trying to educate myself in BS and card counting to minimize the houses edge while having some fun playing.
I would bet the following spreads at the following counts (true count of course)in both games.
neg or 0: 1 unit
2-3: 2 units
4-5: 3 units
6-7: 4 units
8 up: 5 units
I have no idea if thats correct or not, its in some of my notes so I must of read it somewhere......I assume this is really determined by the risk of ruin your willing to assume and how large of a bet spread you can get away with.
To be honest I'm not worried about losing it, don't want to lose it but it wouldn't be the first or the last time I went home broke.
I'm fully aware of the differences in the play for the two games, I was just asking out of curiosity as index plays are next on my list of things to learn. For the time being I will stick religiously to the BS for each of the games.

Hi Rookie - I give u alot of credit for asking the right questions.

I just meant that 2 different games can be played differently depending how u play them. All that penetration crap, wonging or not, how much and when u spread. Like it's just not readily apparent whether you would prefer to play a 2D game with a 1-8 spread and 50% penetration or a 2D game with 60% penetration and a 1-4 spread. Or either of those games vs a play-all 6D S17 game with a 1-10 spread dealt to 5 decks.

Anyway, my guess is spreading 1-5 with those counts in a play-all 6D game isn't that great of a plan. Maybe if they deal down to the last card lol.

And we haven't touched on what your "unit" is.

But if you treat $2K as a lifetime bankroll, I don't think you want to try to beat a play-all 6D game with that.

But you're only playing for 20 hours so almost anything can happen.

See, if I were a card-counter, a real one instead of just reading about it, I'd buy a sim and plug that stuff in and then I'D KNOW :grin:

If you're willing to lose $2k playing, why not invest a hundred or so into a sim where you pick the game etc and presto you find out you might make $10 hr if all goes well lol!

Or you'll find out you can flat-bet $500 in a 4.5/6 shoe with a $33000 bankroll wonging in at TC+2 and make $145/hr.

In the meantime you're on the right track - don't bet too heavy until you are 100% confident in that what you are doing for the game you are playing is OK. Including index numbers etc. In other words, if you don't know if 1-5 spread is right or not, don't do it.

Lose your bankrolls in Casino Verite practicing!

You'll know you're ready when you don't have to ask if you're ready.

 

[Rookie]

Results

After 4 days and about 30 hours of play, I ended up $950. I started out flat betting $25 and practiced counting for the first 2 hours or so. At first it was hard as hell to keep my concentration on the count but it got easier and easier as time went on. Once I started to increase my bet spread with the count it got really interesting. At the Pioneer if you bet spread goes to 4 units, forget about it, they shuffle up the deck (2 deck hand delt game). Even with that spread and my relatively low bets (for this joint I was actually one of the larger betters) the PB was staring at me all the time! I was doing decent until this fool showed up betting $25 then every few hands would jump to $300-500 and riun my count ( he was definately not counting becouse his bets had no correlation to the count), nevertheless anytime he jumped their bet they would shuffle, even if only one hand was out. Next door at the Golden Nugget was alot better, same game. I could get away with a 1-5 spread and got little to no attention from their pit. All in all I had a great time, won alittle money, got my room comped, and got lucky hitting a progressive royal on the dollor VP!!! worth a cool 5995 smackers!

Thanks for all the good info posted here it helped out a former ploppy turn himself into a little less of a ploppy!

 

[CarlB]

against a phoney dealer up your bet.

Against a phoney dealer up your bet. In two decks when the count is bad up your bet. The dealer will suffle away a bad shoe. "Money in the bank".

I have done this many times around the Reno area and it works great. Trick the dealer into resuffling a bad player shoe.

Carl

 

[EasyRhino]

Carl's advice is good. Course, the usual advice is that after you start "playing" the dealer like that, you probably need to leave pretty soon anyway. Because then the floorman will be really ticked if he figured out what you're doing.

So how much were you betting and how much did you bring with you? Sounds like you had a pretty ballsy bet ramp.

 

[Rookie]

Against a phoney dealer up your bet. In two decks when the count is bad up your bet. The dealer will suffle away a bad shoe. "Money in the bank".

I have done this many times around the Reno area and it works great. Trick the dealer into resuffling a bad player shoe.

Carl

Good idea, hell that never even crossed my mind!

 

[Rookie]

So how much were you betting and how much did you bring with you? Sounds like you had a pretty ballsy bet ramp.

Brought 2,000 and was betting 25-75 at the pioneer and at the nugget 25 - 125. Probably way to much for the bank role but it was just for recreation and an overall good time.

 

[Kasi]

Brought 2,000 and was betting 25-75 at the pioneer and at the nugget 25 - 125. Probably way to much for the bank role but it was just for recreation and an overall good time.

Nice going Rookie! Save some of that VP win for taxes