Help end the spread of 6:5 and H17 games

B

BGTD

New Member
#1
#1
I am engaged with posting info about 6:5 games and H17 issues on Wikipedia articles about Harrah's Entertainment, Caesar's Palace, and other major casinos in Las Vegas. I need lots of help. All the articles have editors that protect the articles from changes, but if enough people take up the side of change, we will win out. If this stuff can become a regular part of these articles, it will help our case tremendously. Ploppies use Wikipedia for tons of reasons and will become educated about these issues, and divert their business to casinos that don't have as much 6:5 or H17. It also lets casino executives and marketers know that some people care about these issues, and they cannot change games to H17 or 6:5 without anyone noticing.

You can also post on good casinos (Mirage, Bellagio, etc.). Try to keep your comments as neutral as possible, and simple -- no need to get into the math -- ploppies just need to know that the casino is screwing them by doing this.

Please, help spread the word by editing frequently, watching these pages, etc.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harrah's_Entertainment

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caesar's_Palace

Any other casino you can think of, especially Las Vegas Strip.
 
bj bob

bj bob

Well-Known Member
#2
#2
Picking battles

There's a huge difference between these two rules and one is not worth fighting over. The 6:5 payout renders the blackjack game unplayable with a 1.45% added HA whereas the H-17 version yields a wimpy .19-20% advantage and, although an annoyance, is virtually wiped out by DAS, better pen. or DOA.
To keep the "battle" focused, I would rather go after the bigger monster which is seven times more detrimental to your EV and, BTW, if you really want a cause to pursue, why not picket shoes? They take away a full .5% from your EV.
 
Automatic Monkey

Automatic Monkey

Banned
#3
#3
bj bob said:
There's a huge difference between these two rules and one is not worth fighting over. The 6:5 payout renders the blackjack game unplayable with a 1.45% added HA whereas the H-17 version yields a wimpy .19-20% advantage and, although an annoyance, is virtually wiped out by DAS, better pen. or DOA.
To keep the "battle" focused, I would rather go after the bigger monster which is seven times more detrimental to your EV and, BTW, if you really want a cause to pursue, why not picket shoes? They take away a full .5% from your EV.
Click to expand...
Good point. Without H17, there's no single deck.

Instead, maybe we should go around writing in mens' room stalls "Tap foot for 6:5 BJ." Do you think that might get the message out about that queer rule?
 
bj bob

bj bob

Well-Known Member
#4
#4
Automatic Monkey said:
Good point. Without H17, there's no single deck.

Instead, maybe we should go around writing in mens' room stalls "Tap foot for 6:5 BJ." Do you think that might get the message out about that queer rule?
Click to expand...
Right on, Monk! Further proof that 6:5 really sucks.:flame:
 
G

glovesetc

Well-Known Member
#5
#5
The bottom line here is

casinos are going to what they want , when they want , and how they want . Sure it never hurts to voice objections but it is all a bottom line move sent down by the number crunchers !!!!!!They run the computer print outs and see how they can improve the bottom line . Just like they took a lot of the discretionay comp power from the pit bosses . Just a nyumbers game to them. They send the edict down and that is it !:) :grin: ;) :cool2:
 
S

shadroch

Well-Known Member
#6
#6
You might want to learn a bit about Casinos before writing an article on them.Caesars(There is no ') has been part of Harrahs Entertainment for several years now.
 
ihate17

ihate17

Well-Known Member
#7
#7
How about when the number crunchers are proved wrong

glovesetc said:
casinos are going to what they want , when they want , and how they want . Sure it never hurts to voice objections but it is all a bottom line move sent down by the number crunchers !!!!!!They run the computer print outs and see how they can improve the bottom line . Just like they took a lot of the discretionay comp power from the pit bosses . Just a nyumbers game to them. They send the edict down and that is it !:) :grin: ;) :cool2:
Click to expand...
Glovesetc

Everything you said is correct but it is not the end of the story. The edicts have come down in the past for things like CSM's and Mindplay. When CSM's first hit the casino floors, some casinos had them on higher limit tables and quickly noticed that their big players were now customers of other casinos, so quickly CSM's were relegated to the lowest limit tables.
When the genius who ruined the blackjack income at Hilton decided to install Mindplay21 machines, the same thing happened. Enough of Hilton's significant players disappeared and eventually so did Mindplay.
You can add to this, Caesars when owned by PPE. They had not had single deck for a long time and then they introduced the 6/5 game. They quickly found that only their lowest betting level customers would play the game, so they also got rid of the game. Of course, Harrah's has brought it back but they have a different kind of customer.

So the number crunchers can send their edicts down but the ultimate decision is really made by the players at that casino. Should the players refuse to play, the crunchers pull the game, so anything we can do to cause reduced action on bad games will be noticed and if it is strong enough the game might disappear.

ihate17
 
K

Kasi

Well-Known Member
#8
#8
bj bob said:
The 6:5 payout renders the blackjack game unplayable with a 1.45% added HA
Click to expand...
No big deal but if anyone is going to campaign for the change keep in mind the cost of the rule is a little less than 1.395%, not 1.45%.

And good luck.
 
EasyRhino

EasyRhino

Well-Known Member
#9
#9
I hate 6:5 as much as the next guy, but crapping all over the wikipedia entry for the parent corporations doesn't seem an appropriate way to fight that battle.
 
P

Preston

Well-Known Member
#10
#10
I do the best I can as a consumer -- I DON'T GIVE HARRAH'S ANY ACTION AT ALL!!!!

There are a list of reasons I don't like Harrah's and their properties. 6:5 being one reason. I will not play a 6:5 game. It's just the greediest of the greedy getting greedier.

however, h17 is just a nuisance that I've gotten used to... it doesn't affect the house edge enough for it to make too big of a difference.

Spread the word to your friends who gamble. Tell the WHY and then show some numbers if they care enough...

that might be a better 'bet' than messing around with wikipedia
 
S

shadroch

Well-Known Member
#11
#11
My December trip, I'm staying at the Wynn but have booked two nights at Harrahs Imperial Palace as well.
Why?
Because booking two nites(comped) gets me 4 $5 matchplays and two free buffts. The MPs I'll use,and the buffets tickets I'll pass along to some homeless person.
Then it's off to Laughlin for the weekend where I'll enjoy my comped mini-suite at Harrahs and the $40 food credit they sent me.
I'll play exactly $20 in slots at Laughlin,while playing my BJ at the Trop,Pioneer and Riverside..
As long as they keep sending me freebies,I'll take advantage of them.
 
S

SilentBob420BMFJ

Banned
#13
#13
BGTD said:
I am engaged with posting info about 6:5 games and H17 issues on Wikipedia articles about Harrah's Entertainment, Caesar's Palace, and other major casinos in Las Vegas. I need lots of help. All the articles have editors that protect the articles from changes, but if enough people take up the side of change, we will win out. If this stuff can become a regular part of these articles, it will help our case tremendously. Ploppies use Wikipedia for tons of reasons and will become educated about these issues, and divert their business to casinos that don't have as much 6:5 or H17. It also lets casino executives and marketers know that some people care about these issues, and they cannot change games to H17 or 6:5 without anyone noticing.

You can also post on good casinos (Mirage, Bellagio, etc.). Try to keep your comments as neutral as possible, and simple -- no need to get into the math -- ploppies just need to know that the casino is screwing them by doing this.

Please, help spread the word by editing frequently, watching these pages, etc.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harrah's_Entertainment

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caesar's_Palace

Any other casino you can think of, especially Las Vegas Strip.
Click to expand...
H17 and 6:5 are completely different.. there is nothing wrong with H17 when it is offset by other rules and a low number of decks, but overall, yes it is the worst of the commonly bad rules, but by no means is any H17 game unplayable, but with 6:5, there is no way to offset that garbage, and its not even close to playable compared to other blackjack games, as its 3x worse than your average game.. about wikipedia, i love that site but it frustrates me when i edit something, such as in sports articles, and they change it without even knowing if its right or wrong.. wikipedia will piss you off greatly if you edit a lot..

bj bob said:
There's a huge difference between these two rules and one is not worth fighting over. The 6:5 payout renders the blackjack game unplayable with a 1.45% added HA whereas the H-17 version yields a wimpy .19-20% advantage and, although an annoyance, is virtually wiped out by DAS, better pen. or DOA.
To keep the "battle" focused, I would rather go after the bigger monster which is seven times more detrimental to your EV and, BTW, if you really want a cause to pursue, why not picket shoes? They take away a full .5% from your EV.
Click to expand...
if i was the casino, i would only offer 8 deck games, but i would make it so the house edge was below .4%, and i would advertise this house edge and educate the customers about all the different types of bj games out there, and how the game i am offering is quite good.. im sure there would be some negatives to this, but i think the problem is that customers have no idea what they are playing, so why not just go to the casino that is closest to you, or looks the best? if you educate people that there is a difference, and your casino is the best, they will come there i would think.. i dunno, im sure im wrong somehow, but weve always talked about APs starting casinos, and dont you think that there would at least a few casinos out there that lays it all out on the table for you?

Kasi said:
No big deal but if anyone is going to campaign for the change keep in mind the cost of the rule is a little less than 1.395%, not 1.45%.

And good luck.
Click to expand...
youve gotta be kidding me
 
K

Kasi

Well-Known Member
#14
#14
SilentBob420BMFJ said:
youve gotta be kidding me
Click to expand...
So why would you think that lol?

If it's maybe because you mean why I bothered making such an apparently small correction, and, perhaps, what a pompous *** for doing so, lol, I only did it so that anyone who wants to mount a campaign against the rule should know what the rule costs so maybe they appear to have more credibility blah blah blah etc.

I think the 1.44% is the overall HA given the most common other rules for the game but I didn't want anyone to confuse overall HA with the increase in HA due to the 6-5 rule.

If it's some other reason, let me know.
 
bj bob

bj bob

Well-Known Member
#17
#17
Kasi said:
So why would you think that lol?



I think the 1.44% is the overall HA given the most common other rules for the game but I didn't want anyone to confuse overall HA with the increase in HA due to the 6-5 rule.

If it's some other reason, let me know.
Click to expand...
Yes Kasi, you are correct. The 1.45% I had quoted is the resultant overall HA with the 6:5 game, not the 6:5 rule per se. If the gentleman needs to be accurate while facing the C.E.O. of Harrah's he needs to use that number. BTW, if he gets that far he needs to invite the both of us to that conference to vent our spleens.:whip:
 
K

Kasi

Well-Known Member
#18
#18
/
bj bob said:
BTW, if he gets that far he needs to invite the both of us to that conference to vent our spleens.:whip:
Click to expand...
Count me in :grin:

I did have occasion last week, when I was looking at a 6-5 table with 1 seat open and the dealer asked if I wanted to play. I said I'd rather slit my wrist with a dull butter knife because of the 6-5. She said "well, it doesn't matter much, how often do you get a BJ anyway?"

Needless to say, she asked the wrong guy lol. But, after pointing out to the players they'd lose $9 more an hour than they would at the adjacent table I'm proud to say 3 people left the table by the time I was done. :)

That seemed to work better than stupid 1.39% stuff or once every 21 hands stuff lol.

3 down, 1 million uninformed people to go lol.
 
EasyRhino

EasyRhino

Well-Known Member
#19
#19
Yep, I was walking by a table at a local casino a while back. Dealer had an empty spread and invited me to join. No sign anywhere mentioned 6:5, but it sure looked like he only had a single decks, so I just asked "how much does a blackjack pay?"

"Well, if you bet $10, a blackjack will get you twelve whole dollars!"

"Thanks, but I'll go look for the other $3".
 
P

Playloud

Member
#20
#20
EasyRhino said:
Yep, I was walking by a table at a local casino a while back. Dealer had an empty spread and invited me to join. No sign anywhere mentioned 6:5, but it sure looked like he only had a single decks, so I just asked "how much does a blackjack pay?"

"Well, if you bet $10, a blackjack will get you twelve whole dollars!"

"Thanks, but I'll go look for the other $3".
Click to expand...
I was at Whiskey Pete's in Primm last weekend (coming back from the air show at Nellis). I asked the dealer if it was a 3:2 game, or a 6:5 game. The dealer gave me that deer in the headlights look.

So, I tried to be more specific... I asked if blackjack paid 3:2, or 6:5. The dealer still couldn't answer.

So... I simplified it even more. I asked "If I bet $5, and get a blackjack, how much money will you give me?"... The dealer STILL couldn't answer me!

Finally, I got the answer from another player who had been playing at the table for a while (it was a 3:2 game).

I swear, that dealer was stupid.

I was playing at a $3 table, 6d (I think) with a shuffle machine. They had a couple of empty tables that were offering DD 6:5 with $10 minimum bets. I was glad to see nobody was biting that (though there were a couple people playing SD 6:5).
 
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