Hi-Lo vs. Hi-Opt II

T

Thunder

Well-Known Member
#1
#1
I knew Hi-Opt II was more powerful than Hi-Lo, but until today when I ran simulations on CVCX with a certain PA game (8 decks LS S17, DOA, I had no clue just how much it blows Hi-Lo out of the water. Assuming you wong out at -2 TC and come back in at any point higher than that, here are the results with a 1-16 spread:

Hi-Opt II WR: $53.75/hr Score 62.17 1.719% IBA
Hi-Lo: WR: $17.51/hr Score 42.8 1.62% IBA

This can't be right can it??? I happened to also notice the Standard deviation was much higher for Hi-Opt II given the same betting ramp. Any idea why this is? Only thing I can think of is that it has you putting out max bets far more often.
 
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kewljason

kewljason

Well-Known Member
#2
#2
level 2's general out perform hi-lo (on sims) by 10% give or take. maybe 15% with just the right conditions. But, 200%+ gain in WR? :confused: I am guessing something is wrong.
 
FLASH1296

FLASH1296

Well-Known Member
#3
#3
Re: Hi-Opt II

In a good shoe game your win rate ought to see a big boost of maybe 15%.

That ain't "chicken-feed" Bubba !

Simulations do NOT include the Ace Side Count, crucial for Hi-Opt II

Thus, the sim's understate the power of Hi-Opt II.

The Side Counted Sevens add power in pitch games.
 
kewljason

kewljason

Well-Known Member
#4
#4
FLASH1296 said:
Re: Hi-Opt II

In a good shoe game your win rate ought to see a big boost of maybe 15%.

That ain't "chicken-feed" Bubba !

Simulations do NOT include the Ace Side Count, crucial for Hi-Opt II

Thus, the sim's understate the power of Hi-Opt II.

The Side Counted Sevens add power in pitch games.
Click to expand...

200% flash? :confused:
 
T

tthree

Banned
#5
#5
I been using HIOPT II with ace side in games with these rules and a 1 to 10 spread. It looks about right for my results, 3+ units/hr. Up it to 1 to 16 spread and it should get the 2 units or so. I can't say how the HILO sim looks, maybe someone who uses HILO can chime in.
 
A

AussiePlayer

Well-Known Member
#7
#7
You said wong out at TC -2, wouldn't you need different wong out points accounting for the different card tags? (HiLo at -2 and HiOpt at -4)
 
B

boneuphtoner

Well-Known Member
#8
#8
Not a fair comparison. With level 2 FELT, -4 is about the same as -2 HiLo. So my interpretation is you are sitting out more negative rounds with the higher level strategy
 
psyduck

psyduck

Well-Known Member
#9
#9
Thunder said:
I knew Hi-Opt II was more powerful than Hi-Lo, but until today when I ran simulations on CVCX with a certain PA game (8 decks LS S17, DOA, I had no clue just how much it blows Hi-Lo out of the water. Assuming you wong out at -2 TC and come back in at any point higher than that, here are the results with a 1-16 spread:

Hi-Opt II WR: $53.75/hr Score 62.17 1.719% IBA
Hi-Lo: WR: $17.51/hr Score 42.8 1.62% IBA

This can't be right can it??? I happened to also notice the Standard deviation was much higher for Hi-Opt II given the same betting ramp. Any idea why this is? Only thing I can think of is that it has you putting out max bets far more often.
Click to expand...
I am very sure something was wrong. I spent quite some effort to compare different systems on the shoe game I play. To avoid possible errors, I generated my own indices for each system. HiOpt II with ace side count was definitely the best. However I only observed ~10% better than HiLo, nothing close to your 207%.
 
QFIT

QFIT

Well-Known Member
#10
#10
Thunder said:
I knew Hi-Opt II was more powerful than Hi-Lo, but until today when I ran simulations on CVCX with a certain PA game (8 decks LS S17, DOA, I had no clue just how much it blows Hi-Lo out of the water. Assuming you wong out at -2 TC and come back in at any point higher than that, here are the results with a 1-16 spread:

Hi-Opt II WR: $53.75/hr Score 62.17 1.719% IBA
Hi-Lo: WR: $17.51/hr Score 42.8 1.62% IBA

This can't be right can it??? I happened to also notice the Standard deviation was much higher for Hi-Opt II given the same betting ramp. Any idea why this is? Only thing I can think of is that it has you putting out max bets far more often.
Click to expand...
You cannot use the same betting ramp and same wong-out points for two different strategies. They are different strategies.

Comparing strategies accurately has always been a pain. And if you've read a lot of books, you might note that the strategy introduced in any particular book always seems to come out on top.:)
 
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Tarzan

Tarzan

Banned
#12
#12
Tarzan count

Three counts for the Elven-kings under the sky,
Seven for the Dwarf-lords in their halls of stone,
Nine for Mortal Men doomed to die,
One for the Dark Lord on his dark throne
In the land of casinos where the shadows lie.
One count to rule them all, One count to find them,
One count to bring them all and in the cashflow bind them
In the land of casinos where the shadows lie.
 
FLASH1296

FLASH1296

Well-Known Member
#13
#13
Bear in mind that we are dealing with an archetypal newbie.

"He doesn't even know about second breakfast" no less card-eating !

:p
 
Tarzan

Tarzan

Banned
#14
#14
Counting in Middle Earth

Old Tom Bombadil is a merry fellow,
Bright blue his jacket is, and his boots are yellow.
None has ever caught him yet, for Tom, he is the master:
His songs are stronger songs, and his feet are faster.
 
T

Thunder

Well-Known Member
#15
#15
It is required listening, hearing Old Tom Bombadil and the Dark Lord fester in metaphorical diatribe :p.
 
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zengrifter

zengrifter

Banned
#16
#16
Thunder said:
I knew Hi-Opt II was more powerful than Hi-Lo, but until today when I ran simulations on CVCX with a certain PA game (8 decks LS S17, DOA, I had no clue just how much it blows Hi-Lo out of the water. Assuming you wong out at -2 TC and come back in at any point higher than that, here are the results with a 1-16 spread:

Hi-Opt II WR: $53.75/hr Score 62.17 1.719% IBA
Hi-Lo: WR: $17.51/hr Score 42.8 1.62% IBA

This can't be right can it???
Click to expand...
Yes and no. You simmed the comparison wrong.
To get a relative comparison, use SCORE instead. zg
 
Automatic Monkey

Automatic Monkey

Banned
#17
#17
Thunder said:
I knew Hi-Opt II was more powerful than Hi-Lo, but until today when I ran simulations on CVCX with a certain PA game (8 decks LS S17, DOA, I had no clue just how much it blows Hi-Lo out of the water. Assuming you wong out at -2 TC and come back in at any point higher than that, here are the results with a 1-16 spread:

Hi-Opt II WR: $53.75/hr Score 62.17 1.719% IBA
Hi-Lo: WR: $17.51/hr Score 42.8 1.62% IBA

This can't be right can it??? I happened to also notice the Standard deviation was much higher for Hi-Opt II given the same betting ramp. Any idea why this is? Only thing I can think of is that it has you putting out max bets far more often.
Click to expand...
http://www.zenzoneforum.com/threads/19676-Hi-Lo-vs.-Hi-Opt-II?p=186483#post186483
 
B

bigplayer

Well-Known Member
#19
#19
Thunder said:
I knew Hi-Opt II was more powerful than Hi-Lo, but until today when I ran simulations on CVCX with a certain PA game (8 decks LS S17, DOA, I had no clue just how much it blows Hi-Lo out of the water. Assuming you wong out at -2 TC and come back in at any point higher than that, here are the results with a 1-16 spread:

Hi-Opt II WR: $53.75/hr Score 62.17 1.719% IBA
Hi-Lo: WR: $17.51/hr Score 42.8 1.62% IBA

This can't be right can it??? I happened to also notice the Standard deviation was much higher for Hi-Opt II given the same betting ramp. Any idea why this is? Only thing I can think of is that it has you putting out max bets far more often.
Click to expand...
You've screwed up something. Remember Hi-Opt II and High-Low use different scales. Each TC with High Low is 0.5% vs 0.25% for Hi-Opt II. Looks like you are using the same ramp for both which results in an earlier top bet for Hi-Opt II and later departure point for High-Low. For shoes with average penetration you might see a 5% to 8% difference in win rates and SCORE. If normally play 5 hours a day and can play one extra shoe per day because of the ease of High-Low then High-Low wins out.
 
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