Hi-Opt I, Ill18, and Other Questions

[H Bomb]

Hi all,

I'm new to the board and want to introduce myself and also ask a few questions. I consider myself a fairly good player but no doubt have a lot more to learn. I play pretty much just DD, an occasional SD when I can find it. I use Hi-Opt I w/A side count, and some BS variations based on charts on GameMaster's site. My questions/comments are:

1. I think those BS variation indices are for Hi-Lo, no DAS. I'm not sure S17 or H17. Are Hi-Opt I indices different?
2. I've pretty much decided I'm going to learn the Ill18 for H17. Can someone please post the Ill18 indices for Hi-Opt I, DD, H17? In another thread Sonny posted the Ill18 for SD (not sure S17 or H17) but I'm confused by couple plays. 11 vs. A = 1, 9 vs. 2 = 0, but isn't the BS already to double in both situations?
3. I assume the Ill18 indices are the same for DAS or no DAS since in the split situations (10,10 vs. 5; 10,10 vs. 6) you wouldn't DAS even if you could.
4. Speaking of 10,10 vs. 5 and 10,10 vs. 6, how do people (on this board, I don't care about the people at the table) feel about splitting when the TC dictates? For the most part, would this draw heat or would it actually be a camouflage play?
5. I assume insurance indices of SD = 1.4, DD = 2.4, shoe = 2.9 are for Hi-Lo. Are they different for Hi-Opt I?
6. Since I'm already keeping an A side count for betting, it seems logical to also use it for insurance. It's the same adjustment to the RC but in the opposite direction unless I'm missing something.
7. I recently came across a casino offering a push side bet that pays 10-1. It seems if the TC is high this could be profitable. I understand this changes the BS (16 vs. 10, TC = 5 maybe you hit since you're giving up the side bet if you stay). I plan to keep my side bet small (1/10 of my BJ bet) and not worry about the BS changes. But does anyone know the index? Preferably for Hi-Opt I lol.

Glad to have found this site. Any help would be appreciated!

H Bomb

 

[kewljason]

First of all, welcome to the board H Bomb. I can't help with your questions concerning the Hi-opt1 indices as I do not play that count, but I will weigh in on the splitting of 10's. It does draw heat, but is also a valuable play, so I compromise by not splitting unless the count is even higher than the index for the play. I also make sure that once I split 10's, I leave after that shoe. I would suggust that if you are going to split 10's regularly, occassionally do so at counts below the index for camo purposes. I'm sure others will offer various other opinions. good luck.

 

[maverik]

First of all, welcome to the board H Bomb. I can't help with your questions concerning the Hi-opt1 indices as I do not play that count, but I will weigh in on the splitting of 10's. It does draw heat, but is also a valuable play, so I compromise by not splitting unless the count is even higher than the index for the play. I also make sure that once I split 10's, I leave after that shoe. I would suggust that if you are going to split 10's regularly, occassionally do so at counts below the index for camo purposes. I'm sure others will offer various other opinions. good luck.

when you have your mimimum bets out when the count is cold splitting tens here would be a good camo every one in a while!

 

[rukus]

when you have your mimimum bets out when the count is cold splitting tens here would be a good camo every one in a while!

i beg to differ. splitting tens, even at low counts with a minimum bet out, will *usually* draw attention. once it draws the eye or PB to you, it will not take long for them to realize you are either really dumb or really smart. that said, i still split 10s when my RA indices call for it. :devil::whip:

 

[maverik]

i beg to differ. splitting tens, even at low counts with a minimum bet out, will *usually* draw attention. once it draws the eye or PB to you, it will not take long for them to realize you are either really dumb or really smart. that said, i still split 10s when my RA indices call for it. :devil::whip:

splitting tens against an ace or ten would not make anyone suspicious of you especially when the count is low, especially when your trying to loose, sorry

 

[Automatic Monkey]

Hi all,

I'm new to the board and want to introduce myself and also ask a few questions. I consider myself a fairly good player but no doubt have a lot more to learn. I play pretty much just DD, an occasional SD when I can find it. I use Hi-Opt I w/A side count, and some BS variations based on charts on GameMaster's site. My questions/comments are:

1. I think those BS variation indices are for Hi-Lo, no DAS. I'm not sure S17 or H17. Are Hi-Opt I indices different?
2. I've pretty much decided I'm going to learn the Ill18 for H17. Can someone please post the Ill18 indices for Hi-Opt I, DD, H17? In another thread Sonny posted the Ill18 for SD (not sure S17 or H17) but I'm confused by couple plays. 11 vs. A = 1, 9 vs. 2 = 0, but isn't the BS already to double in both situations?
3. I assume the Ill18 indices are the same for DAS or no DAS since in the split situations (10,10 vs. 5; 10,10 vs. 6) you wouldn't DAS even if you could.
4. Speaking of 10,10 vs. 5 and 10,10 vs. 6, how do people (on this board, I don't care about the people at the table) feel about splitting when the TC dictates? For the most part, would this draw heat or would it actually be a camouflage play?
5. I assume insurance indices of SD = 1.4, DD = 2.4, shoe = 2.9 are for Hi-Lo. Are they different for Hi-Opt I?
6. Since I'm already keeping an A side count for betting, it seems logical to also use it for insurance. It's the same adjustment to the RC but in the opposite direction unless I'm missing something.
7. I recently came across a casino offering a push side bet that pays 10-1. It seems if the TC is high this could be profitable. I understand this changes the BS (16 vs. 10, TC = 5 maybe you hit since you're giving up the side bet if you stay). I plan to keep my side bet small (1/10 of my BJ bet) and not worry about the BS changes. But does anyone know the index? Preferably for Hi-Opt I lol.

Glad to have found this site. Any help would be appreciated!

H Bomb

Hey man! Looks great, sounds like you know what you're doing. Your count is a winner.

Most index plays you see published are for High-Low. Being HO1 is also a level 1 count, the High-Low indices will be very close to what you need, but not exact.

DAS does not affect the I-18, and only a few odd split plays anyway.

The ten split plays are worthwhile, and being you are sidecounting aces you can work your ace count into those index plays too. Isn't it nice to catch an ace when you split 10's?

Yes, back your ace count out of the main count for insurance. Not only will it make the insurance correlation even better, it will give you some nice cover too, because you won't only be taking insurance on large bets, and sometimes you won't take it on large bets. Unless a person watching is also sidecounting aces, they'll think you're guessing. The insurance plays are different for HO1; you should redo your insurance strategy with the added data from the ace count in mind.

Ah, the Push sidebet, I love that one! And HO1 is a great count for it. If you have it available, it is definitely worth it to learn the strategy for it. It's remarkably similar to Lucky Ladies, and the strike point is similar for each sidebet, so if you can play Push you can play Lucky Ladies too.

Unfortunately I am at my work machine now and don't have my simulator available so I can't give you any hard numbers for this stuff.

 

[iCountNTrack]

Hi all,

I'm new to the board and want to introduce myself and also ask a few questions. I consider myself a fairly good player but no doubt have a lot more to learn. I play pretty much just DD, an occasional SD when I can find it. I use Hi-Opt I w/A side count, and some BS variations based on charts on GameMaster's site. My questions/comments are:

1. I think those BS variation indices are for Hi-Lo, no DAS. I'm not sure S17 or H17. Are Hi-Opt I indices different?
2. I've pretty much decided I'm going to learn the Ill18 for H17. Can someone please post the Ill18 indices for Hi-Opt I, DD, H17? In another thread Sonny posted the Ill18 for SD (not sure S17 or H17) but I'm confused by couple plays. 11 vs. A = 1, 9 vs. 2 = 0, but isn't the BS already to double in both situations?
3. I assume the Ill18 indices are the same for DAS or no DAS since in the split situations (10,10 vs. 5; 10,10 vs. 6) you wouldn't DAS even if you could.
4. Speaking of 10,10 vs. 5 and 10,10 vs. 6, how do people (on this board, I don't care about the people at the table) feel about splitting when the TC dictates? For the most part, would this draw heat or would it actually be a camouflage play?
5. I assume insurance indices of SD = 1.4, DD = 2.4, shoe = 2.9 are for Hi-Lo. Are they different for Hi-Opt I?
6. Since I'm already keeping an A side count for betting, it seems logical to also use it for insurance. It's the same adjustment to the RC but in the opposite direction unless I'm missing something.
7. I recently came across a casino offering a push side bet that pays 10-1. It seems if the TC is high this could be profitable. I understand this changes the BS (16 vs. 10, TC = 5 maybe you hit since you're giving up the side bet if you stay). I plan to keep my side bet small (1/10 of my BJ bet) and not worry about the BS changes. But does anyone know the index? Preferably for Hi-Opt I lol.

Glad to have found this site. Any help would be appreciated!

H Bomb

Welcome aboard H bomb,

I should point out to you that Hi-Opt I with Ace SC is really not the way to go in terms of effort to profit ratio. It is much harder than Hi-Lo and performs only slightly better for DD games, and almost equal if not inferior to Hi-Lo for shoe games (where SC aces would be a royal pain). So my advice to you is to switch to Hi-Lo.

As far as the indices for Il18, the indices for Hi-Opt I are slightly different than the ones for Hi-Lo, you can find them in many BJ simulators or training software.

AS far as splitting tens, it is definitely a play that will draw attention whether good or bad it really depends...

 

[stophon]

I'm assuming the push side bet as meaning that when you and the dealer tie you get paid 10-1 as you said, else you lose your side bet wager.

I calculate you need to push 1/11 of the time to break even on this side bet. According to the tables for bj stats (DD h17), you push more often than this on hi lo counts of +2 or higher and hi-op counts of +3 or higher.

This seems too easy though, does this side bet really exist?

 

[H Bomb]

The ten split plays are worthwhile, and being you are sidecounting aces you can work your ace count into those index plays too. Isn't it nice to catch an ace when you split 10's?

Yes, back your ace count out of the main count for insurance. Not only will it make the insurance correlation even better, it will give you some nice cover too, because you won't only be taking insurance on large bets, and sometimes you won't take it on large bets. Unless a person watching is also sidecounting aces, they'll think you're guessing. The insurance plays are different for HO1; you should redo your insurance strategy with the added data from the ace count in mind.

Since I already have to calculate the TC (ace adjusted) for betting, sounds like I should use this for all I18 plays where it's advantageous to catch an ace (10,10 vs. 5 and 6; 10 vs. 10; 9 vs. 2; 10 vs. A; 9 vs. 7).

BTW, the ace adjustment is 1 RC/ace right? Somewhere I saw 2 RC/ace but maybe that's for HO2.

So the HO1 insurance indices are a lot different from 1.4, 2.4, 2.9? If someone knows the indices for HO1 please post or PM me.

Welcome aboard H bomb,

I should point out to you that Hi-Opt I with Ace SC is really not the way to go in terms of effort to profit ratio. It is much harder than Hi-Lo and performs only slightly better for DD games, and almost equal if not inferior to Hi-Lo for shoe games (where SC aces would be a royal pain). So my advice to you is to switch to Hi-Lo.

How can it be only equal or even inferior on shoe games? Is that because of ace SC errors and adjustment errors?

I'm assuming the push side bet as meaning that when you and the dealer tie you get paid 10-1 as you said, else you lose your side bet wager.

I calculate you need to push 1/11 of the time to break even on this side bet. According to the tables for bj stats (DD h17), you push more often than this on hi lo counts of +2 or higher and hi-op counts of +3 or higher.

This seems too easy though, does this side bet really exist?

Your payout assumption is correct and 1/11 is the break even point. I'm not sure about the indices. Yes this side bet exists. C'mon, I'm not making this up. :laugh: I came across it in Vegas earlier this month. If you're heading out there and want to hit it just PM me.

 

[Unshake]

How can it be only equal or even inferior on shoe games? Is that because of ace SC errors and adjustment errors?

I don't use any counts that involve an ace SC but I would guess that they are weaker in 6 or 8 deck games in comparison to double deck games because card removal isn't as big as a factor with a greater number of decks. IE the removal of 1 card from a 6 deck game is less important than removal of 1 card from a 2 deck game.

 

[rukus]

splitting tens against an ace or ten would not make anyone suspicious of you especially when the count is low, especially when your trying to loose, sorry

ok buddy, i, and im willing to bet a bunch of others, beg to differ. i promise you that you draw attention when splitting tens. if you do it for the first time at a low count, no one will even know the count was low (since they werent counting down your shoe up until that point) when you did it because they will only be watching you from that point forward, not up to that point.

 

[FLASH1296]

Hi-Opt I has only a few good sources. It is "under appreciated".

I imagine that you learned it from the old Humble and Cooper book.
Very few people understand that it is a powerful choice for DD games
as the count was designed to be played with multi-parameter Side Counts.
If the counter merely side counts the Aces it becomes more powerful than Hi-LO or K.O.

You may not know that the count is discussed and indices given in a fairly good book.

While not as much of a "fun" read as Blackjack Autumn by Barry Meadow,
Las Vegas Blackjack Diary by Steve Perry (1997) offers very good
Hi-Opt I advice and tables of indices as well, and the author focuses on shoe games.

You can pick up a copy on the cheap (currently as little as $7):

http://product.half.ebay.com/_W0QQprZ539972QQcpidZ736334

 

[zengrifter]

ICNT beat me to it - forget about the HO1, its a relic, and probably more difficult than a level-2 ZEN or equiv.

As for splitting-10s, just DO it. zg

 

[H Bomb]

I don't use any counts that involve an ace SC but I would guess that they are weaker in 6 or 8 deck games in comparison to double deck games because card removal isn't as big as a factor with a greater number of decks. IE the removal of 1 card from a 6 deck game is less important than removal of 1 card from a 2 deck game.

You might've misunderstood my question. I was wondering how HO1 w/ace SC can be only equal or inferior to HL on shoe games. Not how HO1 w/ace SC can become inferior going from DD to shoe games.

I should point out to you that Hi-Opt I with Ace SC is really not the way to go in terms of effort to profit ratio. It is much harder than Hi-Lo and performs only slightly better for DD games, and almost equal if not inferior to Hi-Lo for shoe games (where SC aces would be a royal pain). So my advice to you is to switch to Hi-Lo.

ICNT beat me to it - forget about the HO1, its a relic, and probably more difficult than a level-2 ZEN or equiv.

I agree that if you try to mentally SC aces in shoe games you're in for a world of pain, not to mention mistakes. But I came up with a way that's easy and pretty much 100% accurate (I wouldn't be surprised if others use something similar). I count the aces on one hand, based on the placement of my thumbnail on the ridges of the other 4 fingers:

1st ace - thumbnail on base of index finger
2nd ace - thumbnail on 1st ridge of index finger
3rd ace - thumbnail on 2nd ridge of index finger
4th ace - thumbnail on tip of index finger
5th ace - thumbnail on base of middle finger
etc.

So far I've only played SD and DD but if I have to play shoe I don't think that'd be a problem:

16th ace - thumbnail on tip of pinky
17th ace - same position as 1st ace. One should know whether that's the 1st or 17th ace. :laugh:

I keep my hand palm down on my thigh gently pressed against the bottom of the table. If a PC casually looks under the table he won't even see my hand. Even if he looks directly under the only hand part moving is my thumb, and it's blocked by my thigh and palm.

Granted, I still have to eyeball the ace count to adjust the RC before converting to TC. But given I can SC aces easily and accurately, and I can use it to improve insurance and playing decisions, it seems HO1 has gotta be a lot better than HL. I don't know much about other counting systems so I have no idea how they compare.

 

[iCountNTrack]

I think you might be overlooking the fact that not only you have to side-count more aces but you also have to have very good 1/4D estimation (to calculate the number normal number of aces expected) which is significantly harder in shoe games. 3.75 decks vs 4 decks not so evident.

I guess what ZG and I are trying to tell you, is that Hi-Lo is much better all-around count(DD and shoe games) than Hi-Opt with Ace side count in terms ratio of profit to ease.

 

[JSTAT]

You might've misunderstood my question. I was wondering how HO1 w/ace SC can be only equal or inferior to HL on shoe games. Not how HO1 w/ace SC can become inferior going from DD to shoe games.





I agree that if you try to mentally SC aces in shoe games you're in for a world of pain, not to mention mistakes. But I came up with a way that's easy and pretty much 100% accurate (I wouldn't be surprised if others use something similar). I count the aces on one hand, based on the placement of my thumbnail on the ridges of the other 4 fingers:

1st ace - thumbnail on base of index finger
2nd ace - thumbnail on 1st ridge of index finger
3rd ace - thumbnail on 2nd ridge of index finger
4th ace - thumbnail on tip of index finger
5th ace - thumbnail on base of middle finger
etc.

So far I've only played SD and DD but if I have to play shoe I don't think that'd be a problem:

16th ace - thumbnail on tip of pinky
17th ace - same position as 1st ace. One should know whether that's the 1st or 17th ace. :laugh:

I keep my hand palm down on my thigh gently pressed against the bottom of the table. If a PC casually looks under the table he won't even see my hand. Even if he looks directly under the only hand part moving is my thumb, and it's blocked by my thigh and palm.

Granted, I still have to eyeball the ace count to adjust the RC before converting to TC. But given I can SC aces easily and accurately, and I can use it to improve insurance and playing decisions, it seems HO1 has gotta be a lot better than HL. I don't know much about other counting systems so I have no idea how they compare.

The aces can be side counted on a chip or with a foot. The chip rotates clockwise with each ace. 1:30 with first ace, 3:00 2nd ace, 4:30 3rd ace, 6:00 4th ace, 7:30 5th ace, 9:00 6th ace, 10:30 7th ace, back to 12:00 8th ace. This for double deck.

At 6 deck, place another chip on top after 8 aces. Start again. Each chip underneath is 8 aces. Add the chips and the current clockwise count for the ace side count.

The right foot can also be used to track aces by using the clock positions. After eight aces, put you thumb on your left pinkie finger, then add with the foot count. After 16 aces, put the thumb on the next finger and add with foot count. Piece of cake.

JSTAT

 

[FLASH1296]

On Side Counting Aces and Hi-Opt I

An interesting factoid is that all counts that use an ACE SIDE-COUNT have their playing efficiency and betting correlation and Insurance correlation reported as lower than they actually are, most especially in "pitch games."

This is because the simulations that are done in order to compute these three (3) metrics, do NOT correctly take into consideration the Ace Side Count.

It has been my experience, that most people who use Hi-Opt II or Advanced Omega II (I have never discussed this with a Hi-Opt I player) may use the Ace Side Count to correctly adjust their wagers, but they are clueless on how to adjust their play of the (many) playing decisions that are sensitive to surplus / deficit Aces.

Depending on the "power" of the Ace to increase / decrease the expectation of a particular play, the Aces will have different tags for the play in question.

Ordinarily, (as with your adjusted betting decisions), the Aces are "tagged" the same as your TENS (10's), but with playing decisions the value may be higher or lower. For some playing decisions, the Aces are crucial, for some other decisions, the effect is only marginally significant.

Consider this: You have bets out on two hands. The first is a TEN (10) and the other is a ELEVEN (11) You are looking to make some money with a couple of double downs for a four (4) unit win. Your two hands will react differently to your Ace Side Count.

Surplus Aces enhance your prospects in doubling that TEN vs. the dealer's TEN or ACE. Deficit ACES will have the opposite effect.

Surplus Aces hurt your prospects in doubling that ELEVEN vs. the dealer's TEN or ACE. Deficit ACES will have the opposite effect.

Your Side Counted Aces can have you Hitting both, doubling both, or one of each.

Sometimes the Aces can be "Key Cards" -- in situations where the Ace HELPS you and simultaneously weakens the dealer.

e.g. You see the dealer has a 6 showing. You have a negative True Count creating a marginal decision re: doubling your Soft 17. Surplus Aces are of maximal value as you will convert your Soft 17 into an 18 with an Ace, while those same surplus Aces will force the dealer to stand on Soft 17, or, If the game is a H17 game, the player is still assisted by the enhanced chances of the dealer either hitting to a Hard 17 or busting.

Consider this: You have a pair of NINES (9's) and are facing a Dealer Ace.
You smile to yourself as you mumble something about having a "hunch".
You know full well that you have a very handy surplus of Aces.
Enough so that you have a profitable doubling situation without the requisite high True Count ordinarily needed for this (one of my favorite) plays.

On balance, I would suggest a Level Two count for "pitch games", but there is no good reason to stick with Hi-Opt I for shoe games when it is easy enough to substantially improve your advantage. If the shoe game is a poor one, such as a H17 game with 75% penetration, you will need "all of the help that you cam get."

For those looking for a reasonable choice for their casual play of low-stakes shoe games my suggestion is to use K.O. or Hi-Lo.

If playing frequently or playing for substantial stakes, I would suggest a balanced Level Two count e.g. Zen, RPC, or Ben Franklin counts.

 

[QFIT]

Hi-Opt II with an Ace side count is a very powerful strategy that edges out AOII with a SC except for very deep penetrations that no longer exist, albeit very difficult to use. Hi-Opt I is simply a lousy count. Sorry Igor.

 

[jack.jackson]

Hi-Opt II with an Ace side count is a very powerful strategy that edges out AOII with a SC except for very deep penetrations that no longer exist, albeit very difficult to use. Hi-Opt I is simply a lousy count. Sorry Igor.

Provided, this is true, Its probably only because Ho2 uses more extreme indices. As you can tell, I stand by the ao2.

And Fash; your spot-on with ace-params. They're a Big card w/99v7andA/XvX. They're also a great weapon for softdoubling A2-A5.
16v7 is a fun one too.

 

[jack.jackson]

You might've misunderstood my question. I was wondering how HO1 w/ace SC can be only equal or inferior to HL on shoe games. Not how HO1 w/ace SC can become inferior going from DD to shoe games.





I agree that if you try to mentally SC aces in shoe games you're in for a world of pain, not to mention mistakes. But I came up with a way that's easy and pretty much 100% accurate (I wouldn't be surprised if others use something similar). I count the aces on one hand, based on the placement of my thumbnail on the ridges of the other 4 fingers:

1st ace - thumbnail on base of index finger
2nd ace - thumbnail on 1st ridge of index finger
3rd ace - thumbnail on 2nd ridge of index finger
4th ace - thumbnail on tip of index finger
5th ace - thumbnail on base of middle finger
etc.

So far I've only played SD and DD but if I have to play shoe I don't think that'd be a problem:

16th ace - thumbnail on tip of pinky
17th ace - same position as 1st ace. One should know whether that's the 1st or 17th ace. :laugh:

I keep my hand palm down on my thigh gently pressed against the bottom of the table. If a PC casually looks under the table he won't even see my hand. Even if he looks directly under the only hand part moving is my thumb, and it's blocked by my thigh and palm.

Granted, I still have to eyeball the ace count to adjust the RC before converting to TC. But given I can SC aces easily and accurately, and I can use it to improve insurance and playing decisions, it seems HO1 has gotta be a lot better than HL. I don't know much about other counting systems so I have no idea how they compare.

Side counting aces, in a shoe game is a nightmare. Occasionaly there will be will be a surplus/shortage of 8 or more aces. Multiply that x2(l2) add/subtract that to your RC, then divide by lets say 2 1/2 decks, before you even decide what to bet. Trying not to forget what the RC was before you made the conversion, is the tricky part. Easier said than done.