House advantage for odd rules

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squeeks

Well-Known Member
#1
#1
The rules are as follows: DOA, NDAS, NRS, S17, dealer wins pushes, blackjacks pay 2 to 1, 5 or more cards that are under 21 automatically gets paid 2 to 1. Can someone please estimate the house edge for this game.
Also, with around $1,000 in cash on hand for me to pay out bets with, what would be an appropraite table max with a 5% ror.

No I'm not playing this game, but dealing it once in a while. Everybody that plays always asks me if they get paid double on blackjacks, and the 5 card rule seems to be pretty popular among my players. So I figure that they get what they want to see, and I enjoy quite a bigger edge.

Help is much appriciated.
 
Dyepaintball12

Dyepaintball12

Well-Known Member
#2
#2
Hey,

BJ pays 2-1: +2.27% for you
5 cards w/o bust: +0.24% for you

Looks good right?

But,

Dealer wins all pushes: -8.86%


Wizardofodds.com


David
 
C

callipygian

Well-Known Member
#3
#3
squeeks said:
The rules are as follows: DOA, NDAS, NRS, S17, dealer wins pushes, blackjacks pay 2 to 1, 5 or more cards that are under 21 automatically gets paid 2 to 1. Can someone please estimate the house edge for this game.
Click to expand...
So, basically everything except for dealer wins pushes, blackjacks pay 2 to 1, and 5 card Charlie is going to be irrelevant, because those three are huge. But here's the complete list since I had WoO open anyway. :)

From memory:
8 decks: -0.57%
2 decks: -0.25%

From WizardofOdds:
DOA: 0% (assumed)
nDAS: -0.14%
nRS: -0.10%
S17: 0% (assumed)
5 card Charlie: +1.46%
2:1 BJ: +2.27%

From this thread:
dealer wins ties: -6.8%

Adding that all up adds up to about -4%.

Edit: motherf***er, how is this topic idle for an hour and somehow I get scooped just as I start writing?

Edit #2: The difference between the -8.86% and -6.8% is how you treat blackjacks. I believe WoO/DyePaintball assume that player BJ vs. dealer 21 goes to the dealer, whereas my number always pays player BJ.
 
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Blue Efficacy

Well-Known Member
#4
#4
Can't you deal out a fair game? I hope the people playing this game aren't your friends. You'd still make money if you dealt a game with less than 1% edge, you know..
 
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actuary

Well-Known Member
#5
#5
You guys aren't calculating the 5-card charlie rule correctly. This version pays 2-1 vs 1-1 on the wizard's website. 1.46% is not the correct figure, rather it should be doubled to 2.92%. It should also be noted that when you add a whole bunch of different rules, the numbers on the wizard's websites start to lose accuracy due to correlation. If you really want to know the correct house edge, you should run a sim.

These figures are meaningless anyway, since your players are probably not playing correct basic strategy for these rules. Even if they wanted to play perfectly, it is not likely that they would be able to find the correct bs charts for your game. 5-card charlie, for example, requires an extra set of rules depending on the number of cards in the player's hands.

If you want to make your game even more fun and enticing, why not consider adding some of these inexpensive rules:
- double on any number of cards (+0.24%)
- early surrender (+0.63%)
- player may draw to split aces (+0.19%)
- double down rescue (+0.10%)
 
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squeeks

Well-Known Member
#6
#6
Any idea of how much I can safley set the betting limits with a $1,000 bank?


These peolpe don't play close to bs, so they are probably at a good 2-3% advanntage already. I once saw a player stand on his first two cards of 6 so that he wouldn't take the dealers bust card.
 
Sonny

Sonny

Well-Known Member
#7
#7
There’s a good chapter on banking BJ games in Million Dollar BJ. It describes how to set the betting limits, what kind of bankroll requirements you’ll need, how to set up the game and more. I don’t have it handy but maybe someone else can check it.

-Sonny-
 
FLASH1296

FLASH1296

Well-Known Member
#8
#8
squeeks,

If you are banking this game, the number of players is important, but without that factor specified, and assuming 4 players, I would suggest that if you allow $50 bets, and just a few rounds go sour for you, you will be wiped out. Try allowing $1-$10. If you allow more than that they will go belly up so swiftly that you will be accused of cheating and, in any case your suckers, oops, I mean friends, will be disinclined to return to the slaughter.

Of course you are swindling your associates by providing horrible rules to players who probably do not know how to play in the first place, and are thus operating under an obscene disadvantage of perhaps as bad as -8.0%
 
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standard toaster

Well-Known Member
#10
#10
actuary said:
You guys aren't calculating the 5-card charlie rule correctly. This version pays 2-1 vs 1-1 on the wizard's website. 1.46% is not the correct figure, rather it should be doubled to 2.92%. It should also be noted that when you add a whole bunch of different rules, the numbers on the wizard's websites start to lose accuracy due to correlation. If you really want to know the correct house edge, you should run a sim.

These figures are meaningless anyway, since your players are probably not playing correct basic strategy for these rules. Even if they wanted to play perfectly, it is not likely that they would be able to find the correct bs charts for your game. 5-card charlie, for example, requires an extra set of rules depending on the number of cards in the player's hands.

If you want to make your game even more fun and enticing, why not consider adding some of these inexpensive rules:
- double on any number of cards (+0.24%)
- early surrender (+0.63%)
- player may draw to split aces (+0.19%)
- double down rescue (+0.10%)
Click to expand...
I dont think early surrender is a good one to put into play in this situation
Not only do i think would it be ignored by all the players but why offer a rule that if someoen figures out how to play will take away .63% from his edge. I dont think that one is really to inexpensive

although most players would probably play it wrong anyway if it did catch on only to add to his edge....
 
jack.jackson

jack.jackson

Well-Known Member
#11
#11
If you got the HA under 1%

A thing to note however; The fact, that the dealer wins all pushes, would make card counting virtually ineffective, do to the increased pushes at higher counts.

I seriously doubt that the 2to1 payout, would make counting more effective, when stacked up agianst, "Dealers wins all ties", "to me" "this rule" seems like it would render counting worthless.
 
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squeeks

Well-Known Member
#12
#12
I have a copy of million dollar blackjack and have read that section, but was hoping that someone could put it in a different way that could make it clearer.
It says that with a bank of $1000 you could deal at a 5% ror to 6 $3 bettors.
The number of players vary from 1 to 5 players as players will take breaks to get food or somthing, but the average $ amount of action on the table at any given round is about $30. That is because when we were playing by standard bj rules I set the max bet to $20, but there is only 1 player that likes to bet that high and $20 is what he bets the majority of the time, but would like to bet more(especially when he is losing). Everybody else bets around $3 on average, accept towards the end of the night when they start chasing their money. With that info can I reasonably safley have a higher max?
 
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squeeks

Well-Known Member
#14
#14
jack said:
A thing to note however; The fact, that the dealer wins all pushes, would make card counting virtually ineffective, do to the increased pushes at higher counts.

I seriously doubt that the 2to1 payout, would make counting more effective, when stacked up agianst, "Dealers wins all ties", "to me" "this rule" seems like it would render counting worthless.
Click to expand...
No one even has a clue how to count, although they like to talk about the movie 21 at the table, and like to tell me that they know how to beat me, they might know the value of the cards for hi-lo, but even if they could count as fast as I deal, they wouldn't know how to use the info. Plus w/ these new rules put in place they couldn't get an edge anyways. I would acctually perfer that they try to count as they will lose more, maybe I'll go through the basics really fast with them right before we play. Although my biggest better counts the aces as they come out and asks me to shuffle when there is none left, but he doesn't even bet accordingly at all.
 
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Cardcounter

Well-Known Member
#15
#15
Game has huge house advantage!

There are a couple of rules that are just deal breakers when I playing blackjack. One is ties lose the worst rule of all and the other is blackjack pays 6 to 5. With ties losing blackjack paying 2 to 1 is not even close to a good enough perk to get me to play. Now you said you are banking rolling this game with a $1,000 is that to play or for the tray. If it is for the tray that is pretty light bankroll considering casinos for low limits $5-$200 have typically around $10,000 in the tray. Your limits to be a $1-$10 homegame.
 
jack.jackson

jack.jackson

Well-Known Member
#16
#16
squeeks said:
No one even has a clue how to count, although they like to talk about the movie 21 at the table, and like to tell me that they know how to beat me, they might know the value of the cards for hi-lo, but even if they could count as fast as I deal, they wouldn't know how to use the info. Plus w/ these new rules put in place they couldn't get an edge anyways. I would acctually perfer that they try to count as they will lose more, maybe I'll go through the basics really fast with them right before we play. Although my biggest better counts the aces as they come out and asks me to shuffle when there is none left, but he doesn't even bet accordingly at all.
Click to expand...
Its no secret, we all say things, in which we are not! Some people just straight out lie,(for different reasons) while others exaggerate, then you have others, "who think" they know what they're talking about, but dont!

Its one of the reasons, why im pretty content with myself. Its never what it seems at first glance.
 
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CSK001

New Member
#18
#18
Thanks

Hi,

I, think the information provided by you is very useful. In fact, I was looking for this kind of stuff. I'm a big fan of online gaming. I'm a new one in this forum. Please let me know.

CSK

(Dead link: http://www.bizoppjunction.com) _Business Opportunities_
 
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