How much does a crowded table effect EV?

[gibsonlp33stl]

Just out of curiousity. I know it's better to play heads up or just 1 or 2 other people at the table when counting. Does this actually have a better EV/ hand, or is it just better b/c you get in more hands per hour? So I know that at a crowded table you'll make less money per hour, but what about per hand? I'm just getting into counting, I just want to make sure that as I practice if I play at a full table, I may not have quite as good hourly rate return, but at least I'd theoretically still have an advantage.

Thanks for the help!

 

[johndoe]

It affects nothing but your hands per hour; other players have no influence on your EV/hand.

(Though it's nice to be able to spread to 2+ hands during positive counts.)

 

[Sonny]

Does this actually have a better EV/ hand, or is it just better b/c you get in more hands per hour?

Your EV/hand usually goes down a bit since you're playing more hands off the top of the shoe, but most of your loss is due to the fewer hands per hour.

-Sonny-

 

[gibsonlp33stl]

Really?

With same penetration and game, are you really taking more hands off the top of the shoe? I know the more people means less hands towards the end of the shoe...but shouldn't that also mean more hands at the beginning of the shoe too?

 

[Sonny]

With same penetration and game, are you really taking more hands off the top of the shoe?

Here’s an extreme example: Imagine a single-deck game with 50% penetration.

If you play alone you will probably get 5 rounds per deck, 1 off the top and 4 using the count to make better betting/playing decisions. You will make your last bet at close to the 50% mark so the penetration is decent.

If you play with two other players then you will probably get 3 rounds per deck, 1 off the top and only 2 using the count to vary your bets and plays. Your last bet will be close to the 33% mark so the penetration is not very good.

If you play with 5 other players then you will only get 1 round per deck which will always be off the top. The count will be useless and your last bet will be off the top so penetration is terrible.

With fewer player at the table you get fewer hands off the top and deeper penetration - all good things. In a shoe game it might not change things very much, definitely not as much as playing fewer hands per hour, but it happens.

-Sonny-

 

[DonR]

My experience with crowded table, playing 8D games, with bad penetration, is that they are disastreous.

Waiting for TC to go above +2 takes forever, and in those rare occasions where it reaches higher values, and I push out my big bets, not only I'm getting killed so many times, because it seems that everybody else, but me, is getting good cards, but also those high counts vanish so quickly (a hand or two), because of so many people at the table.

So, yes, mathematically, your EV should not really be too much affected, other than by less hands per hour, but real life is much tougher. Obviously, I'm talking about poor 8D games, it might not be as bad with better games. Unfortunately, I wouldn't know about that.

 

[gibsonlp33stl]

Good example Sunny...I guess it makes a huge difference in SD/DD, and probably a smaller difference in 6D/8D, although still a difference. Mainly I was just curious b/c lately the local casinos are getting less and less BJ tables, so they become fuller and fuller. I don't mind if my expected EV dips a good amount b/c less hands per hour, I just want to make sure that I'm not playing a game that has negative EV.