I hate Basic Strategy

Dyepaintball12 · Jul 20, 2006

I have, on 6 different occasions been to a casino to play blackjack.

The first time I went, I had absolutely no idea how to play and lost alot of money to begin with, then found a dealer that in essence played for me and I made $70.

After this I studied Blackjack and got basic strategy down perfectly. I went back to the casino and won another $50.

Then things went downhill. The other 4 times I went, I lost $300, $300, $120, and $65.

I am playing perfect basic strategy, using good money management skills I think, and yet I still keep getting owned.

And furthermore, people yell at me when I make the right move! I was playing at a table where me and a couple guys were all havin some fun with the dealer and I get 8-8 against the dealers K. I take out money to split, and the guy next to me goes "No dont split 8's against the 10". I said "No I'm definitely splitting". I give the signal for split, and the dealer goes "Don't split." I do it again, and she says "No, you shouldn't split." Then for a third time I did the signal and said "I am going to split these 8's".

Now, because I split, I lost one and won one (pushed), instead of not splitting where I would have lost.

I cannot take how all these people, and even the dealer, keep judging me for making the right play.

Should I just drive farther to another casino where there aren't CSM's so I can count? Because BS does not seem to be working for me.

Thanks guys.

avs21 · Jul 20, 2006

Dyepaintball12 said:

I have, on 6 different occasions been to a casino to play blackjack.

The first time I went, I had absolutely no idea how to play and lost alot of money to begin with, then found a dealer that in essence played for me and I made $70.

After this I studied Blackjack and got basic strategy down perfectly. I went back to the casino and won another $50.

Then things went downhill. The other 4 times I went, I lost $300, $300, $120, and $65.

I am playing perfect basic strategy, using good money management skills I think, and yet I still keep getting owned.

And furthermore, people yell at me when I make the right move! I was playing at a table where me and a couple guys were all havin some fun with the dealer and I get 8-8 against the dealers K. I take out money to split, and the guy next to me goes "No dont split 8's against the 10". I said "No I'm definitely splitting". I give the signal for split, and the dealer goes "Don't split." I do it again, and she says "No, you shouldn't split." Then for a third time I did the signal and said "I am going to split these 8's".

Now, because I split, I lost one and won one (pushed), instead of not splitting where I would have lost.

I cannot take how all these people, and even the dealer, keep judging me for making the right play.

Should I just drive farther to another casino where there aren't CSM's so I can count? Because BS does not seem to be working for me.

Thanks guys.

Even with BS you still are going to lose.. I have a similar situation the closest casino near me is two hours away, but I don't like the playing conditions there. Instead I will drive twice the distance to play better games. Ever since I learned about blackjack I refuse to play CSM's.

Mikeaber · Jul 20, 2006

As you should know by now, BS gives you the best chance to lose the least amount of money without counting or otherwise getting an advantage. If you are going to play straight BS, playing with flat bets is probably the best way to do it. You'll have less money wagered and the less you have wagered, the less the house's advantage can work against you.

As for the CSMs....I do not think they are going to hurt the non-counter that much if at all. I think you are just experiencing a pretty bad losing streak that should eventually turn around.

zengrifter · Jul 21, 2006

Dyepaintball12 said:

Define "good money management skills". zg

tedloc · Jul 21, 2006

Csm

Mikeaber said:

Mike is right. If you do not count cards, the CSM does not hurt you. Remember, even if you are counting, a fresh deck is almost an even money bet. According to Fred Renzy, you are a 101/100 underdog on a new deck. The house has a .05% advantage, that is built into the game. So for the non card counter, unaware of the true count, this is much more advantageous, than upping your bet, when the count is -5.

Automatic Monkey · Jul 21, 2006

tedloc said:

It's not certain. On the first approximation the CSM does hurt the BS player because he plays more hands per hour, and thus loses more money per hour. If he is playing for comps he's going to be rated as a function of time spent at the table so a BS player is better off in the slowest game possible. In some stores you can certainly play at positive EV with the comps.

On the other hand, having a CSM at the table is going to shield the BS player from Wongers and backcounters gobbling up his good cards. But that's a low-level effect, I think the BS player is best off at a slow, hand-dealt table with good rules and generous comps.

tedloc · Jul 21, 2006

Automatic Monkey said:

It's not certain. On the first approximation the CSM does hurt the BS player because he plays more hands per hour, and thus loses more money per hour. QUOTE]

Click to expand...

Automatic Monkey said:

Mikeaber · Jul 21, 2006

The best situation I've found for a BS player is a hand shuffled shoe game with a new dealer who is taking it really slow in order not to make mistakes. When I played straight BS and flat bet, my objective was more to "survive" than to make money and the best way to do that was to play slow and take a lot of breaks from the table. "AM" is certainly correct there. CSMs will increase hands per hour because there is no "time out" for shuffling.

My statement that CSMs didn't hurt the BS player much (or at all) was based strictly on the probabilities of any given hand dealt with the player having no clue as to the composition of the shoe from which his hands were dealt.

Gregory · Jul 21, 2006

Dyepaintball12 said:

Yes, this aspect does suck. It's something that gets under my skin as well and all I can tell you is how I deal with it. The splitting of 8's seems to be a move that only someone who is familiar with basic strategy knows. That rules out approximately 80% of the people sitting at any blackjack table. It's a shame some of them feel compelled to spread their ignorance and speak up when you make a correct play that they don't agree with.
I usually play the novice blackjack player role at the casino to keep some of the heat off me. One of my tools is a basic strategy chart that I printed from the site here and laminated. Sometimes I'll look at it to make even a fairly simple decision (like splitting 9's against an 8). The pit critters see me consulting my chart to make simple plays and my threat level to them drops about thirty notches.

But having that chart to shove under the nose of the ignorant is pretty handy also. Usually by the end of my blackjack sessions most of the table is asking me to consult my chart of proper play for them. Some people it seems really want to be relieved of the burden of making that choice on whether to hit or stand on their 16 against the dealer's 10. Having an inanimate object tell them what to do is probably a relief.
If it bugs you having the uninformed criticize your correct play, print the appropriate chart for the table conditions and carry it in your back pocket. Consult it when making some decisions so people know you aren't making this stuff up. It can be a handy tool.

sagefr0g · Jul 21, 2006

Gregory said:

Yes, this aspect does suck. It's something that gets under my skin as well and all I can tell you is how I deal with it. The splitting of 8's seems to be a move that only someone who is familiar with basic strategy knows. That rules out approximately 80% of the people sitting at any blackjack table. It's a shame some of them feel compelled to spread their ignorance and speak up when you make a correct play that they don't agree with.
I usually play the novice blackjack player role at the casino to keep some of the heat off me. One of my tools is a basic strategy chart that I printed from the site here and laminated. Sometimes I'll look at it to make even a fairly simple decision (like splitting 9's against an 8). The pit critters see me consulting my chart to make simple plays and my threat level to them drops about thirty notches.

But having that chart to shove under the nose of the ignorant is pretty handy also. Usually by the end of my blackjack sessions most of the table is asking me to consult my chart of proper play for them. Some people it seems really want to be relieved of the burden of making that choice on whether to hit or stand on their 16 against the dealer's 10. Having an inanimate object tell them what to do is probably a relief.
If it bugs you having the uninformed criticize your correct play, print the appropriate chart for the table conditions and carry it in your back pocket. Consult it when making some decisions so people know you aren't making this stuff up. It can be a handy tool.

i like the idea about the chart.
it doesn't bother me when ploppies comment and criticize my play. actually i like for that to happen especially if the pit critter hears and sees it. i can then respond back to the advise givers as if i'm really buying into there nonsense and trying to learn from their 'wisdom'. i figure if a pit critter thinks your trying to learn the nonsense that the ploppies spout that it is good camo.
best regards,
mr fr0g

Mikeaber · Jul 21, 2006

sagefr0g said:

The only problem with that is that PCs about half the time, don't know any more about BS than those offering the bad advice!

sagefr0g · Jul 21, 2006

Mikeaber said:

roflol, ain't that the truth in fact one would be likely to encounter a pit critter dispensing the same advice as the ploppies :laugh: .
but lest we get to cavilier on this issue there are infact some PC's about that know the score. gotta watch out for them types

.

best regards,
mr fr0g

Mikeaber · Jul 22, 2006

I've talked to PCs in non-LV casinos. Most of them do not think that counting is even possible in shoe games. Of those who do know it's possible, most think that the ONLY way they can even suspect anyone of counting is to observe them spreading their bets. I watch at low limit tables and high limit as well and see spreads large enough to make even the most seasoned counter break out in hives....yet these spreads are being made on horrible counts, obviously by someone playing strictly on gut-feelings.

The reality is that in the casinos I normally play in, you do not have to worry about heat. They wouldn't know a counter if they saw one. The only place I've played where I even suspected it was due to the actions of a player sitting next to me. He wasn't even shadowing my bets but he was betting heavy. They were short shuffling me whether by intent or by coincidence in an effort to thwart the big bettor! However, it is just barely possible that they were on to me. I'll find out Monday as I'm heading back up there for another "go" at them.

sagefr0g · Jul 22, 2006

Mikeaber said:

this reminds me of an amusing incident i saw in a mid-west casino. there was this college aged kid and his girl friend playing at my table. of course i'm sitting there counting my merry way along. i was absent mindedly monitoring the kid's bets and could see that he wasn't counting. as you know just being a college kid is enough to cause suspicion amongst many critters. well it was probably so in this case cause the pit boss started to hovering over this kid and making remarks about his play. he would make remarks to the kid and then walk away and return watch and then make more remarks. he'd say in a smartelec way things like "whats the count now, kid?" and "you know that counting doesn't work don't you". i was an even more greenhorn counter back then than i am now. this exchange was kind of playing with my mind but i kept right on counting. the kid was obviously from his facial expressions getting embarrased and ticked off. when he left he looks at the pit boss and says "gee thanks for making this such an enjoyable experience" afterwards i thought to myself how the pit boss completely ignored me the guilty one just because i'm no spring chicken and have the look of a clueless ploppy and probable hopeless gambling addict case. :joker:

Mikeaber said:

thats pretty much my case also. i hope.

well, i sense that the staff knows about counting but they seem not overly concerned. i'm pretty sure they know what i'm up to but i make a point of not rubbing it in their noses and i play the mr nice guy role to the hilt. rubbing elbows with the popular locals and just generaly ingratiating my self as much as possible.
good luck Monday dude!

best regards,
mr fr0g

Canceler · Jul 23, 2006

Uncharacteristic rambling...

Mike and Mr. Fr0g have summed up my situation just about exactly between them. I'm pretty sure my casino knows I count, but they don't seem to care. I just play red to low green, and try not to rub their noses in it by being too obvious about things.

For awhile though, I had the feeling my picture must be posted somewhere. Dealers I had never played with before commented that they had looked forward to playing with me. (I think one thought she could deal faster than I could count. Wrong!) 1 or 2 dealers seem to hate me, like I might be stealing bread off their table. One of those always wants me to color up the greens he suspects I have in my pocket. I never do. 98% of the dealers don't care one way or the other.

One dealer commented that she didn't think I was really a gambler at heart. Some people come here thinking they can actually win, she said. Right on both counts, but I didn't tell her that.

It's fairly disconcerting to have the dealer say, "Oh, you're playing greens, the count must be really high." I don't know if he was just guessing, or knew something, or was just trying to mess with me. To that kind of thing I just give my dumb look which says I have no idea what they're talking about.

Floor people are always friendly to me. One or two of them, when I try to hand in my player's card, say they've already got me. No heat at all.

The whole situation just seems so strange and uncertain. They must know, but not care! I'll just keep on doing what I'm doing, playing low stakes, and try not to be obvious. If I decide to play for higher stakes I think I would do it somewhere else, though. Don't want to ruin a good thing.

Sorry, this is the most I've ever rambled on about anything, but this thread stuck a chord with me.

ScottH · Jul 23, 2006

Canceler said:

That's sort of how it was for me. I was an hour and a half from the nearest casino that I could play until I turn 21, so I had to play marathon sessions. A couple of the dealers knew I was counting and would make remarks like that. I was sure the casino knew I was counting but they didnt kick me out. Well, they just kicked me out earlier this week without warning so they might not care for now, but they might eventually ban you. I dont know how long you play though. I was playing sessions sometimes up to 6 or 7 hours at a time! If you only play a few hours a session they might not care. I think they decided to give me the boot since I was overstaying my welcome. But I didnt have a choice, I had to play at least 4 hours to make it worthwhile.

Automatic Monkey · Jul 23, 2006

sagefr0g said:

this reminds me of an amusing incident i saw in a mid-west casino. there was this college aged kid and his girl friend playing at my table. of course i'm sitting there counting my merry way along. i was absent mindedly monitoring the kid's bets and could see that he wasn't counting. as you know just being a college kid is enough to cause suspicion amongst many critters. well it was probably so in this case cause the pit boss started to hovering over this kid and making remarks about his play. he would make remarks to the kid and then walk away and return watch and then make more remarks. he'd say in a smartelec way things like "whats the count now, kid?" and "you know that counting doesn't work don't you". i was an even more greenhorn counter back then than i am now. this exchange was kind of playing with my mind but i kept right on counting. the kid was obviously from his facial expressions getting embarrased and ticked off. when he left he looks at the pit boss and says "gee thanks for making this such an enjoyable experience" afterwards i thought to myself how the pit boss completely ignored me the guilty one just because i'm no spring chicken and have the look of a clueless ploppy and probable hopeless gambling addict case. :joker:

One time I got a lecture about counters from a dealer. He tells me: "You can always tell a card counter. They just stare at the cards, they never talk, and they never drink."

"No kidding, really?" I answered, looking him in the eye and taking a sip of my martini.

zengrifter · Jul 23, 2006

Automatic Monkey said:

On more than one occaision, a few years ago when Casino Royale had good playable 2D, I sat at the bar with the whole surveillance crew at shift change while they taught me about basic and counting strategy - totally off the wall. zg

avs21 · Jul 23, 2006

zengrifter said:

Did they end up teaching you how they catch CC's and what they look for?

zengrifter · Jul 23, 2006

avs21 said:

These guys were clueless. If you want to know more about that subject read Cellini's 'Surveillance for Card Counters'. zg
(Dead link: http://www.gamblersbook.com/weblink.cby/detail/483602.html)

I hate Basic Strategy

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