indirect heat?

[evilrobotmonkey]

so there is a place where i play double deck fairly regularly. i've been pretty lucky to not have receive any direct heat there. however, i was wondering if i've received heat indirectly.

for example, sometimes when i play, i notice that when the count is high and i start betting big... another dealer comes in to replace the one at the table, and whenever that happens, it is time to shuffle. i think it's more likely a coincidence, but i still wonder if pit bosses send new dealers over when they suspect someone is counting and bets are increased. if so, why would they try to deter counting in a disguised manner, instead of just backing that person off? i've been backed off at some places in rude manners, so it doesn't seem like casinos care to remain courteous to card counters.

also, some dealers cut the penetration deeper than others. every now and then i'll run into dealers who cut at 50%. sometimes i start off a session with a great dealer who cuts at 80%... then all of a sudden that dealer will get replaced by other ones who consistently cut at 50%. is this something casinos are known to do to take away card counters' edge, instead of having to back them off? why don't they just back them off?

i'm probably a little paranoid.

 

[EasyRhino]

Pay attention to how often dealers rotate, and see if they rotate in or out, out of schedule.

Some dealers will reflexively reduce penetration if they see bets rising near the end of a shoe, whether or not they're counting.

 

[cardcounter0]

"If so, why would they try to deter counting in a disguised manner, instead of just backing that person off?"

Some places have more class than others.

Also, if they cut pen consistently (and shuffle away high positive counts), you are no longer playing a beatable game. If you are just a counter instead of a true Advantage Player, you will find yourself not making a profit, or even losing, and chalking it up to standard deviation.

By taking away your high advantage counts (which your betting system assumes will occur) and reducing pen from a good game to a bad one, they are able to make money on counters who continue to play without an advantage. Much more profitable than backing someone off.

 

[kewljason]

Heat just means the casino is aware of you. It can come in mild forms such as a stare from the pit or a "chatty" pit critter trying to distract you, to faster dealers, to a cut in penetration, to bet spread limitations. They may decide you are not worth their time and effort and do nothing at all. But chances are by the time you get a tap on the shoulder you have missed a couple hints. (except of course the really paranoid places that just overreact)

 

[sagefr0g]

....i'm probably a little paranoid.

probably not but you do post about the subject fairly often.
maybe your overly interested, concerned about the subject of heat?
could that sort of let's call it maybe a preoccupation with heat maybe give you a demeanor that attracts heat to you? heck if i know?
did you ever read Eric Berne's Games People Play? there's a game in there called Kick Me where one goes about life as if they had a sign on their back that says kick me. i'm not saying your into such games but it might be a good read.
stay cool. lol

 

[EyeHeartHalves]

"If so, why would they try to deter counting in a disguised manner, instead of just backing that person off?"

By taking away your high advantage counts (which your betting system assumes will occur) and reducing pen from a good game to a bad one, they are able to make money on counters who continue to play without an advantage. Much more profitable than backing someone off.

This is correct. However, you (cardcounter0) may be giving pitcritters too much credit. They may not be SURE that he's a cardcounter. The CC has probably been playing there a while and the critter probably sees him bumping up a couple green chips every couple of DD shoes. The critter isn't sure about the CC but figures he'll call in a new dealer to shuffle as a "better safe than sorry measure" as opposed to a "countermeasure". If the CC was betting black chips as opposed to red or green, the critter would probably be calling upstairs. In this manner, I also don't think the critter understands what happens in the long-term when he shuffles up on positive counts.

In the long-term, I think critters just understand that cutting off an entire deck hurts the counter.

TO THE CC: During positive counts were you waiting until the present dealer put both of her hands on the DD before putting your bigger bet in the circle???

 

[Canceler]

maybe your overly interested, concerned about the subject of heat?

She's been backed off. A certain amount of paranoia is normal after that.

http://www.blackjackinfo.com/bb/showpost.php?p=92377&postcount=3

 

[shadroch]

She's been backed off. A certain amount of paranoia is normal after that.

http://www.blackjackinfo.com/bb/showpost.php?p=92377&postcount=3

Right.

 

[EasyRhino]

Also, there's a chance that you've got a paleolithic pit critter who wants to send in a dealer who's not "dumping" and use the Sacred Flow of the Cards to disrupt the mojo. They're not as common any more, and it would probably only happen if you were really killing them.

 

[ihate17]

early rotation, dealer pen

The standard is a 40 minute session with the main dealer and 20 minutes with the relief. Some places, especially ones where dealers go for their own tokes, will rotate their dealers from table to table to table, generally for 30 minutes per stop.
If you believe you are getting an early rotation because the count is high and they think you are counting their is something you can try for one additional hand and then you might leave. In many places if you put a toke out for the old dealer and ask him/her to deal another hand, they will do so. If they are not allowed to deal that extra hand by the pit, then you should be able to figure out you have been made.

The reduction of pen, shoe or pitch, is one of the nicest ways of telling a cardcounter that it is over for his positive EV play without backing him off or much more important to the casino not upsetting anyone else at the table. Most players have no idea of what the pen is and have no reason too. Only we think about it constantly. Not long ago a new dealer came into a shoe game I was playing heads up, finished the shoe that had about a deck cut off, shuffled and cut the next shoe exactly in half and gave me a big (knowing) smile. It was time to move on.

ihate17

 

[evilrobotmonkey]

This is correct. However, you (cardcounter0) may be giving pitcritters too much credit. They may not be SURE that he's a cardcounter. The CC has probably been playing there a while and the critter probably sees him bumping up a couple green chips every couple of DD shoes. The critter isn't sure about the CC but figures he'll call in a new dealer to shuffle as a "better safe than sorry measure" as opposed to a "countermeasure". If the CC was betting black chips as opposed to red or green, the critter would probably be calling upstairs. In this manner, I also don't think the critter understands what happens in the long-term when he shuffles up on positive counts.

In the long-term, I think critters just understand that cutting off an entire deck hurts the counter.

TO THE CC: During positive counts were you waiting until the present dealer put both of her hands on the DD before putting your bigger bet in the circle???

No, I put the bet out before that. I left a 3 unit bet out yesterday when they pushed the dealer and shuffled to avoid looking suspicious. The dealer got BJ the first hand

Some dealers will reflexively reduce penetration if they see bets rising near the end of a shoe, whether or not they're counting.

Are dealers instructed to do so? Card counters don't really hurt the dealer so I just wish they didn't care. There's been times where I pushed two big bets out and got BJ on both of them, and the dealer would seemingly look over to the pit to see if they saw my "suspicious activity." But like I said I'm probably paranoid.

There is a dealer at a casino I go to who if I remember correctly, was a pit boss another night, if that's possible. She scares me.

 

[Mimosine]

Are dealers instructed to do so? Card counters don't really hurt the dealer so I just wish they didn't care. There's been times where I pushed two big bets out and got BJ on both of them, and the dealer would seemingly look over to the pit to see if they saw my "suspicious activity." But like I said I'm probably paranoid.

There is a dealer at a casino I go to who if I remember correctly, was a pit boss another night, if that's possible. She scares me.

anything is possible. if the casino makes it a point to have dealer's act on the casino's part in protecting their game then not doing so would hurt the dealer....

several if not most pit people were dealers. i have played several places where a pit person and a dealer were one in the same! just this past week in fact!

 

[The Kid]

The reduction of pen, shoe or pitch, is one of the nicest ways of telling a cardcounter that it is over for his positive EV play without backing him off or much more important to the casino not upsetting anyone else at the table. Most players have no idea of what the pen is and have no reason too. Only we think about it constantly. Not long ago a new dealer came into a shoe game I was playing heads up, finished the shoe that had about a deck cut off, shuffled and cut the next shoe exactly in half and gave me a big (knowing) smile. It was time to move on.

I've had the pen reduced on me before, but I always play right through them as if nothing is wrong. Like you said, we're the only ones who care about pen and playing through it helps me blend in with the ploppies a bit more. After playing through a couple of reduced pen shoes, the pit critter seems less interested in my play, and the pen goes back to normal.

 

[jay28]

... another dealer comes in to replace the one at the table, and whenever that happens, it is time to shuffle.

Is shuffling a common occurrence on dealer changes or just an excuse?? when dealer changes happen in the casino's I play in the new dealer just takes over from the last, no reason to shuffle. It would proberly cause a riot or empty the table. I am in the UK thou so most likely different here.

 

[EasyRhino]

In my experience reshuffling with a new dealer on a shoe game is very rare. But it's the norm on a pitch game (but I've seen a few places where they will "hand off" a double deck wad of cards")

 

[jay28]

In my experience reshuffling with a new dealer on a shoe game is very rare. But it's the norm on a pitch game (but I've seen a few places where they will "hand off" a double deck wad of cards")

Ok thanks that makes more sense, I never think of pitch games as I've never seen one let alone played, don't even know if they exist in the UK.

 

[evilrobotmonkey]

at what point of penetration is a DD game no longer profitable anyway?

in a double deck game, when they cut to 50%, is it still profitable? are they ok with letting me play at 50% penetration, spreading 1-5, because at that point my edge is diminished?

 

[EasyRhino]

You'd still have some sort of edge, but it would be very marginal. If you were playing all hands, possibly under 0.50%. So even if they let you play, dunno if you should let yourself.

 

[EyeHeartHalves]

Hey Evil,

in a double deck game, when they cut to 50%, is it still profitable? are they ok with letting me play at 50% penetration, spreading 1-5, because at that point my edge is diminished?

I think you still might have a small edge with 50% pen. I like to play games that cut off less than 0.8 decks but this is just an arbitrary rule that I have applied for myself. I really do think that "Preferrential Shuffling" is a countermeasure that you should be worrying about. Even if the pit critters don't understand what they're doing by switching dealers when you raise your bet, it does SERIOUSLY affect your edge and can even reverse it!

I do have a couple more ideas which may prevent this casino action. First, let me re-state the first idea. You should wait to "place" or "raise" your bet until the second before the dealer is ready to deal the first card.

(2) Consider the timing of your tips. If you tip at all, you may want to wait until that big bet hand before placing the penny or the nickel for the dealer. Even if this doesn't entice her to stay on board, at least TWO different dealers will think that you are a "fair" tipper.

(3) This is a lot more complicated but if you really think that they are simply changing the dealer because you raised your bet near the end of the pack, it's your best move for this casino. I redescovered it courtesy of James Grosjean's "Steal This Move" essay inside of Beyond Counting. He credits a Mr. Marks who I know of from the Biography channel's Breaking Vegas series. Let's say you want to bet at least 7 small bets on the next hand. Let's call them $25. The chip on the bottom is C1, followed by C2, and so on. C1 = $100; C2 through Cx (where x is at least 4) are $25 each (green chips). C1 is normally stacked in the center of the circle. C2 is sticking out slightly towards the dealer so as to cover most of the surface of the black chip. C3 and C4 (two more green chips) are stacked normally, vertically parallel to C1. They act to conceal the rest of C1. When you are proficient with this move, the dealer will think that you are placing at least a $100 bet but not much more. It works even better at a red chip table. (i.e.: She'll think you're betting $20 but you are actually betting $45.) If you are still having trouble envisioning what I am trying to descibe, imagine hanging Dolly Parton upsidedown by her ankles. Can you still see her face???

Practice with chips at home while standing in front of your dining room table.

--Halves

 

[evilrobotmonkey]

I think you still might have a small edge with 50% pen. I like to play games that cut off less than 0.8 decks but this is just an arbitrary rule that I have applied for myself. I really do think that "Preferrential Shuffling" is a countermeasure that you should be worrying about. Even if the pit critters don't understand what they're doing by switching dealers when you raise your bet, it does SERIOUSLY affect your edge and can even reverse it!

I do have a couple more ideas which may prevent this casino action. First, let me re-state the first idea. You should wait to "place" or "raise" your bet until the second before the dealer is ready to deal the first card.

(2) Consider the timing of your tips. If you tip at all, you may want to wait until that big bet hand before placing the penny or the nickel for the dealer. Even if this doesn't entice her to stay on board, at least TWO different dealers will think that you are a "fair" tipper.

(3) This is a lot more complicated but if you really think that they are simply changing the dealer because you raised your bet near the end of the pack, it's your best move for this casino. I redescovered it courtesy of James Grosjean's "Steal This Move" essay inside of Beyond Counting. He credits a Mr. Marks who I know of from the Biography channel's Breaking Vegas series. Let's say you want to bet at least 7 small bets on the next hand. Let's call them $25. The chip on the bottom is C1, followed by C2, and so on. C1 = $100; C2 through Cx (where x is at least 4) are $25 each (green chips). C1 is normally stacked in the center of the circle. C2 is sticking out slightly towards the dealer so as to cover most of the surface of the black chip. C3 and C4 (two more green chips) are stacked normally, vertically parallel to C1. They act to conceal the rest of C1. When you are proficient with this move, the dealer will think that you are placing at least a $100 bet but not much more. It works even better at a red chip table. (i.e.: She'll think you're betting $20 but you are actually betting $45.) If you are still having trouble envisioning what I am trying to descibe, imagine hanging Dolly Parton upsidedown by her ankles. Can you still see her face???

Practice with chips at home while standing in front of your dining room table.

--Halves

thanks for the advice!

i'm definately getting into the habit of not placing my bet out until the second the cards are dealt. one little problem however, is that i sometimes try to be smooth and "let my winnings ride," and it looks a lot more natural if i don't pull my winnings in before the next hand. i usually sit in third base so the dealer pays me first, and i'm wondering if it's better to: (a) collect my winnings as soon as i'm paid, and place out my next bet the moment the next hand is dealt or (b) leave my winnings out, then adjust my next bet the moment before the next hand is dealt. option A enables me to scoop my winnings before it draws any attention, as i have pretty big bets out there after double downs and splits, and (b) enables me to "let it ride" easier. (a) is usually what i opt for.

i really like that third suggestion. i already mix up green and reds in my bet in hopes of disguising how much i'm betting, but i like the systematic method you described. i'll have to practice that and try it out!