Is it me or what?

blackchipjim

Well-Known Member
#1
You will all have to excuse my next question but it's starting to bug me a bit. Is it my imagination or are the people asking questions about team play or starting teams increasing since that movie increasing. I have noticed that people here are asking questions that should be asked after you have your own game down pat. Basic strategy, counting system, and betting correlated to the advantage are your abc's of advantage play. I would never seriously consider team play or even play with another ap until I had those down cold. blackchipjim
 

charlieflip

Well-Known Member
#2
I could guess that the biggest factor is that starting a team with friends make the experience alot more fun, and gives you a comfort of sort which you don't have counting solo.
 

Nuh-vad-uh

Active Member
#3
Of course there is going to be an interest in team play after that movie. Movies do that to people. They cause people to rethink their lives and wonder wow what if I did that? So naturally they are going to attempt to do it but in about 3 months they will be gone. No big deal. They only thing that pisses me off is the fact that I have lived in Vegas my whole life and of course had gaming all around me. I have always just casually played BJ or poker and whatnot but now people are going to automatically associate me with these cockslaps that are just showing up do to this movie. You will see though when these guys are gone in a few months the real players will still be around.
 
#4
blackchipjim said:
You will all have to excuse my next question but it's starting to bug me a bit. Is it my imagination or are the people asking questions about team play or starting teams increasing since that movie increasing. I have noticed that people here are asking questions that should be asked after you have your own game down pat. Basic strategy, counting system, and betting correlated to the advantage are your abc's of advantage play. I would never seriously consider team play or even play with another ap until I had those down cold. blackchipjim
Not necessarily - they could still be INVESTORS. Investors have the same value as team players and get half. zg
 
#5
charlieflip said:
I could guess that the biggest factor is that starting a team with friends make the experience alot more fun, and gives you a comfort of sort which you don't have counting solo.
That's a good point. I'm mostly into sharing information, which is a form of team play too.

The team method shown in "21" is mostly obsolete but one thing I did like about the movie was that it illustrated how such an arrangement can lead to exploitation. They had a corrupt, criminal professor leading them, giving them orders and ultimately ripping them off, and he served little to no purpose other than that.

As a general rule unless a hierarchical structure has a clear and articulable purpose, it's probably a bad thing.
 

blackchipjim

Well-Known Member
#6
Factors

I would suppose from the standpoint of investors it is a free cattle call. I wouldn't consider being on a team for the very reason of deception involved. I don't play well enough to consider it and I would be doubly wary of the scam artists. Reading has enlightened me and playing has put to practical use the things I've read. Trial and error with various methods to the madness is involving as it can get. The "hi I'm new to counting and I'm think of starting a team" is really what I'm talking about. Think about this statement " Hi, I just started walking yesterday and I have a 10k run tomorrow any pointers?' blackchipjim
 

charlieflip

Well-Known Member
#7
blackchipjim said:
I would suppose from the standpoint of investors it is a free cattle call. I wouldn't consider being on a team for the very reason of deception involved. I don't play well enough to consider it and I would be doubly wary of the scam artists. Reading has enlightened me and playing has put to practical use the things I've read. Trial and error with various methods to the madness is involving as it can get. The "hi I'm new to counting and I'm think of starting a team" is really what I'm talking about. Think about this statement " Hi, I just started walking yesterday and I have a 10k run tomorrow any pointers?' blackchipjim
I totally agree with you.

That's why I think its very important to start a team with well known friends, if you are to start a team. If 21 teaches us something, its like Automatic Monkey said, it teaches us that team play could lead to betrayal.

I myself am starting a team with two friends which I have known long, and they are both intelligent and have a high ambitionous-level. These, I think, are almost criteria for starting a team (at least the second one). Then also you have to agree on alot of other things, which also help when being friends with the teammembers.
 
#8
I have 3 great friends. We play poker together alot. I have been trying to get them to learn how to become a AP BJ player for ever. They are just not interested. I wish they would though, because I trust anyone of them with my life as they do with me. It would be a fun to have a team of friends and not have to worry about the trust issue. I do sometimes deploy some cardcounting/shuffle tracking at the poker table and when I win show them how they lost. It will catch there interest some but not enough to commit. Then they tell me it is not allowed in our pokergame and threaten to lock up the bar:laugh: .......so I quit. Pugi
 

sagefr0g

Well-Known Member
#9
PUGI said:
I have 3 great friends. We play poker together alot. I have been trying to get them to learn how to become a AP BJ player for ever. They are just not interested. I wish they would though, because I trust anyone of them with my life as they do with me. It would be a fun to have a team of friends and not have to worry about the trust issue. I do sometimes deploy some cardcounting/shuffle tracking at the poker table and when I win show them how they lost. It will catch there interest some but not enough to commit. Then they tell me it is not allowed in our pokergame and threaten to lock up the bar:laugh: .......so I quit. Pugi
there was an old saying....... something about business deals and friends not being the best sort of thing for friendships.
 

bj bob

Well-Known Member
#10
verba sapientiae

sagefr0g said:
there was an old saying....... something about business deals and friends not being the best sort of thing for friendships.
.....Words of wisdom indeed from a very sage frog.
 

blackchipjim

Well-Known Member
#11
Team play

Starting a team is a business and can be alot of fun in the process. There are alot of teams that start and end with people accused of alot things that friends would not do to each other. The real point here is experience or lack of thereof in playing. I have always felt that the people that post and answer those posts give advice that is pretty on target. With due respect to the pros or semipros they have the responsibility to straigten out the inexperienced players that are getting off track. ( I'm not one of them) blackhipjim
 
#12
sagefr0g said:
there was an old saying....... something about business deals and friends not being the best sort of thing for friendships.
I mostly agree but, I have been in business with family before. We agreed business is business, family is family up front. We would have our problems at work but when the family was together we are just that, a family. We never brought work home. The group of friends I talk about it is the same way. We do everything together. When we play poker behind closed doors we can talk about anything. Help each other out, give advise, rely on each others expertise. Not saying we have not had problems in the past but when there is a problem it goes to a vote. Majority rules. End of problem, no questions asked. We all abide by this. This is what makes our group great. Something that neither one of us wants to loose. Pugi
 
#13
PUGI said:
I mostly agree but, I have been in business with family before. We agreed business is business, family is family up front. We would have our problems at work but when the family was together we are just that, a family. We never brought work home. The group of friends I talk about it is the same way. We do everything together. When we play poker behind closed doors we can talk about anything. Help each other out, give advise, rely on each others expertise. Not saying we have not had problems in the past but when there is a problem it goes to a vote. Majority rules. End of problem, no questions asked. We all abide by this. This is what makes our group great. Something that neither one of us wants to loose. Pugi
It's a noble idea. But humans are flawed, and you have to consider what would happen if a member of your family gave in to some temptation that he cannot always control and rips you all off. Things like this happen to the best of us.
 

Bojack1

Well-Known Member
#14
You know what, playing on a team is not easy and most who do it will fail for one reason or another. Lets be honest, so will most individual counters trying to do it on their own. Its just the way it is and there is no magic way to make it happen any other way. Its easier to talk about what it takes to win at blackjack then to actually do it. I see so many that get fired up with delusions of grandeur after reading some romanticized books about counting, or feeling the same way after watching something like the movie 21. As I have said before, counting is no thrill ride, its work. It doesn't mean you can't like the work, but that should be the attitude taken if you want to seriously make money. I am not even talking millions here, I am talking just winning. If its the thrill of the gamble, the adrenaline rush of a big bet, the idea of you against the man thats leading you to count, forget it, you won't last. With all those emotions also comes the crushing feeling of losing when you feel you should be winning. Thats all nonsense. Peoples emotions lead to failure as much as inability to perform what they know in actual casino conditions. I love adrenaline rushes, but blackjack ain't it. I get my thrills outside the casino, as do a lot that actually really play the game for profit. Inside the casino its just work with good days and bad days. If you really know what you're doing you can financially weather the bad, and eventually enjoy more of the good. Pretty simple. As with a team, it should be run as a business. And as with any business if not properly run or funded it will fail. If done correctly it will succeed. Of course it takes trust, as does any endeavor not soley taken will, as well as skill.

The bottomline is it has nothing to do with a certain system being obsolete. That is absurd because a good team can adapt to any style of play in accordance to condition in which they are playing. This means that many forms of play are used, some even unaware to most. It has nothing to do with a failure using a hierarchy approach to the team, as I said, if run like a business most business have different levels of employment and pay grade and they operate just fine. Some like the fact that all they have to do is show up and play and get paid without having to do any of the leg work. Its really just like most employees that have the luxury of not having to take their job home with them. Of course there can be teams where all are equal, but its just a matter of preference on team policy, not a mandatory formula of success or failure.

Temptations, cheating, stealing, yada, yada, yada. Its all part of life. As with life all you need to know with such things is how to handle the situations as they arise. We don't live in bubbles so we are not immune to the undesireable things we encounter, but how you handle it will determine your success as much as anything else you learn. You do have the power to minimize that which may do you harm, its sometimes not easy though, and that is in itself the main problem. Counters and counting teams fail because blackjack and gambling are ingrained as recreational activities at best. When it becomes hard and in need of discipline, its not fun. So be it, but as I have learned, recreation and fun usually cost, while work will usually earn. I love to play, but as I said before I get my kicks outside of the casino.
 

rukus

Well-Known Member
#15
POM nomination

Bojack1 said:
You know what, playing on a team is not easy and most who do it will fail for one reason or another. Lets be honest, so will most individual counters trying to do it on their own. Its just the way it is and there is no magic way to make it happen any other way. Its easier to talk about what it takes to win at blackjack then to actually do it. I see so many that get fired up with delusions of grandeur after reading some romanticized books about counting, or feeling the same way after watching something like the movie 21. As I have said before, counting is no thrill ride, its work. It doesn't mean you can't like the work, but that should be the attitude taken if you want to seriously make money. I am not even talking millions here, I am talking just winning. If its the thrill of the gamble, the adrenaline rush of a big bet, the idea of you against the man thats leading you to count, forget it, you won't last. With all those emotions also comes the crushing feeling of losing when you feel you should be winning. Thats all nonsense. Peoples emotions lead to failure as much as inability to perform what they know in actual casino conditions. I love adrenaline rushes, but blackjack ain't it. I get my thrills outside the casino, as do a lot that actually really play the game for profit. Inside the casino its just work with good days and bad days. If you really know what you're doing you can financially weather the bad, and eventually enjoy more of the good. Pretty simple. As with a team, it should be run as a business. And as with any business if not properly run or funded it will fail. If done correctly it will succeed. Of course it takes trust, as does any endeavor not soley taken will, as well as skill.

The bottomline is it has nothing to do with a certain system being obsolete. That is absurd because a good team can adapt to any style of play in accordance to condition in which they are playing. This means that many forms of play are used, some even unaware to most. It has nothing to do with a failure using a hierarchy approach to the team, as I said, if run like a business most business have different levels of employment and pay grade and they operate just fine. Some like the fact that all they have to do is show up and play and get paid without having to do any of the leg work. Its really just like most employees that have the luxury of not having to take their job home with them. Of course there can be teams where all are equal, but its just a matter of preference on team policy, not a mandatory formula of success or failure.

Temptations, cheating, stealing, yada, yada, yada. Its all part of life. As with life all you need to know with such things is how to handle the situations as they arise. We don't live in bubbles so we are not immune to the undesireable things we encounter, but how you handle it will determine your success as much as anything else you learn. You do have the power to minimize that which may do you harm, its sometimes not easy though, and that is in itself the main problem. Counters and counting teams fail because blackjack and gambling are ingrained as recreational activities at best. When it becomes hard and in need of discipline, its not fun. So be it, but as I have learned, recreation and fun usually cost, while work will usually earn. I love to play, but as I said before I get my kicks outside of the casino.
 

golfnut101

Well-Known Member
#16
So be it, but as I have learned, recreation and fun usually cost, while work will usually earn. I love to play, but as I said before I get my kicks outside of the casino.
For all the new hopefuls to this game, please take notice to this quote. I have coached high school and university hoops for years, and have constantly been asked by kids how to get better. The message of hard work, and getting a solid base of fundamentals is rarely heard; most are looking for a 'magic wand' from me. Regardless of bank roll, game conditions, counting systems, etc if you dont put in the time, as our good friend ZG says...FUHGET ABOUT IT !!(sorry Zen if I stole some thunder)

PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE, and then MORE PRACTICE !!!
 

sagefr0g

Well-Known Member
#17
Bojack1 said:
........ Counters and counting teams fail because blackjack and gambling are ingrained as recreational activities at best. When it becomes hard and in need of discipline, its not fun. So be it, but as I have learned, recreation and fun usually cost, while work will usually earn. I love to play, but as I said before I get my kicks outside of the casino.
so this leaves me wondering. the idea that one might want to find a line of work that is to one's liking to where it could be like unto play. a joy to pursue. or is that just a pipe dream and the old saw is correct that 'they wouldn't call it work if you liked it'?
 
#18
Re:

As this topic is about counting, I thought I'd relay a story. I was at Mountaineer and was playing BS at a table after losing most of the day. I was checking the time frequently on my cell phone. I was on tilt a little bit and got lucky with some decent bets out. The dealer looks at me and tells me to stop looking at my cell phone, because the eye in the sky might think I am calculating the count via a cellphone program. He told me he didn't want the attention. Has anyone else ran into this? They seem a bit paranoid. I promptly asked him "They must really be paranoid about counters huh?" He shot me this weird look and said uh huh. Again, I was just playing BS. That's the first time that's happened to me. I was just in a time crunch and needed to leave soon.
 
#19
Bojack1 said:
You know what, playing on a team is not easy and most who do it will fail for one reason or another. Lets be honest, so will most individual counters trying to do it on their own. Its just the way it is and there is no magic way to make it happen any other way. Its easier to talk about what it takes to win at blackjack then to actually do it. I see so many that get fired up with delusions of grandeur after reading some romanticized books about counting, or feeling the same way after watching something like the movie 21. As I have said before, counting is no thrill ride, its work. It doesn't mean you can't like the work, but that should be the attitude taken if you want to seriously make money. I am not even talking millions here, I am talking just winning. If its the thrill of the gamble, the adrenaline rush of a big bet, the idea of you against the man thats leading you to count, forget it, you won't last. With all those emotions also comes the crushing feeling of losing when you feel you should be winning. Thats all nonsense. Peoples emotions lead to failure as much as inability to perform what they know in actual casino conditions. I love adrenaline rushes, but blackjack ain't it. I get my thrills outside the casino, as do a lot that actually really play the game for profit. Inside the casino its just work with good days and bad days. If you really know what you're doing you can financially weather the bad, and eventually enjoy more of the good. Pretty simple. As with a team, it should be run as a business. And as with any business if not properly run or funded it will fail. If done correctly it will succeed. Of course it takes trust, as does any endeavor not soley taken will, as well as skill.

The bottomline is it has nothing to do with a certain system being obsolete. That is absurd because a good team can adapt to any style of play in accordance to condition in which they are playing. This means that many forms of play are used, some even unaware to most. It has nothing to do with a failure using a hierarchy approach to the team, as I said, if run like a business most business have different levels of employment and pay grade and they operate just fine. Some like the fact that all they have to do is show up and play and get paid without having to do any of the leg work. Its really just like most employees that have the luxury of not having to take their job home with them. Of course there can be teams where all are equal, but its just a matter of preference on team policy, not a mandatory formula of success or failure.

Temptations, cheating, stealing, yada, yada, yada. Its all part of life. As with life all you need to know with such things is how to handle the situations as they arise. We don't live in bubbles so we are not immune to the undesireable things we encounter, but how you handle it will determine your success as much as anything else you learn. You do have the power to minimize that which may do you harm, its sometimes not easy though, and that is in itself the main problem. Counters and counting teams fail because blackjack and gambling are ingrained as recreational activities at best. When it becomes hard and in need of discipline, its not fun. So be it, but as I have learned, recreation and fun usually cost, while work will usually earn. I love to play, but as I said before I get my kicks outside of the casino.

Well said, well said. Might I might add too, for those new persons thinking of starting a team, that "21" only showed the tip of the iceberg of the work the MIT kids put in. The hard work is "boring and tedious" and doesn't make for good TV. However, those who have read the books, myself included, know that it took months of training. Those kids gave up much of their life and sacrificed much to get to where they could go into casinos and be profitable. Like everything else in life though, if it seems too good too be true, it usually is. In the world of degenerate gambling addicts, egoheaded bit bosses/dealers, and Joe and Sally Shmoe betting their rent money, being profitable long term in bj is anything but hollywood.
 
#20
On a roll

Any one out there have any advice on .......this week I played single deck Blkjack. I was down to my last $250.00 of alloted playing money for that session and got on a roll. There was one other player at the table to my left that knew how to play basic. I started building my money up to betting $400.00 a hand I would of put more out there($25.00 table) but didnt have it because as I previously stated was down to $250.00. I won every hand. The dealer schuffled and right when I had placed my first bet on the new deal a FLOCK OF PEOPLE ran over to throw there money down . One on my immediate left and one on my immediate right and one on first base! I asked them all if they would mind waiting while I finished this deal because I was on a roll. I won every hand but the last hand. I needed a six and busted with a seven by then I has placed a $800.00 bet. I wanted of course to play another round under the circumstances I couldnt because these_____s saw me get on a roll and came runnning over to jump in.
I set aside $100.00 to play 4 more hands . Of course the cards has changed. i lost the $100.00 and walked. But my is IS THERE ANY WAY TO PREVENT THIS FROM HAPPENING AGAIN? By the way there were no $100.00 mininum tables there. This was the highest limit in the casino.This also is not the first time this has happened.
 
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