Is it rude/unusual to ask to check the decks ?

UK-21

UK-21

Well-Known Member
#1
#1
Hi all,

Reading and soaking it all up continues.

A question though. I've read something written by a pro gambler along the "what does it mean" vein - playing six six decks shoes, and only receiving between 10 and 13 aces per shoe (tracked using a sidecount). His view was that someone was being less than honest and that 4-6 aces had been removed, as with a 75% penetration the average should have been 18. But how can it be proved ?

Having never payed for real, is it (or would it be) considered rude / offensive / unusual to ask to check the decks at the end of a shoe, or to have the cards changed for six new decks? Is this a sure way to get yourself frog-marched out of the door, or is it something that is not unreasonable considering that "guests" could be spending (losing?) several $00s?

Anyone done this ?

Newb99
 
C

Canceler

Well-Known Member
#3
#3
It's definitely unusual. I may have seen it once. The dealer was sorting the cards into decks at a table that should have been open. But there was no player around watching, so I'm not really sure what was going on there.
 
Sonny

Sonny

Well-Known Member
#4
#4
Normally the cards should be spread on the table when the table is empty. That would give you a chance to check the cards. You could also find out what time the casino changes decks and watch their procedure closely. The bigger casinos usually change cards once a day or so, but in a smaller casino you might have to ask.

It would definitely be suspicious for someone to ask to see the cards. If you have the time, I would backcount the game and try to gather enough data to have reasonable certainty that the decks were short. If it's possible you could also try to track the cutoffs to seeif the aces really are missing.

-Sonny-
 
moo321

moo321

Well-Known Member
#5
#5
If you suspect the game is shorting their shoes get out of there! Call gaming control, and let them deal with it. Is this an Indian casino, or a corporation?
 
UK-21

UK-21

Well-Known Member
#6
#6
Thanks for the pointers. So it isn't something that is expected and would be considered to be bad form? I'll bear it in mind.
 
Automatic Monkey

Automatic Monkey

Banned
#7
#7
shadroch said:
If you are asking that is implying that the dealer is cheating rude,the answer should be obvious.
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It's something much worse than rude too. What if the casino really is cheating?

Assuming this is a place with a normal casino control authority (i.e. not an Injun casino) you have now threatened to send somebody probably much higher up than the dealer to prison, and they now have something to gain by retaliating. Plan on being arrested and framed up.

You just can't win in that situation as it's unlikely the dealer is cheating on his own, especially if you are talking about something like a shorted shoe. The decision to do something like that is made by someone with power to hurt you, so if you really suspect it best to get out and let someone else with power deal with it.
 
moo321

moo321

Well-Known Member
#8
#8
A poker game would be a different situation. In that case a player could have been holding out cards, and you could catch them by calling attention to the situation.
 
R

rukus

Well-Known Member
#9
#9
moo321 said:
A poker game would be a different situation. In that case a player could have been holding out cards, and you could catch them by calling attention to the situation.
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regarding blackjack - i say nowadays any major casino would be stupid to cheat and most likely is not, so there is no need to ask to see the cards. i would say on the north east coast that goes for places like foxwoods and mohegan sun as well. as sonny pointed out, if you sit at an empty table you should be able to inspect the cards anyway as they will be spread out.

regarding poker - i also recall hearing discussions where any person at a poker table (at least in vegas) can ask to see hole cards of other players after a round to check collusion between two other payers (this would give sharp players more info on how players play specific types of hands). i've never seen this done though if i recall correctly.
 
C

callipygian

Well-Known Member
#10
#10
rukus said:
any person at a poker table (at least in vegas) can ask to see hole cards of other players after a round to check collusion between two other payers (this would give sharp players more info on how players play specific types of hands). i've never seen this done though if i recall correctly.
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I believe the rule only applies to showdowns, not to any hole cards that were mucked before the river (or even on the river before the betting ended). It's still unusual, though, at least on low-limit tables, and I've never seen anyone pull out the rule to ENFORCE a show, because most people will show upon request.
 
Q

Qwijibo

New Member
#11
#11
callipygian said:
I believe the rule only applies to showdowns, not to any hole cards that were mucked before the river (or even on the river before the betting ended). It's still unusual, though, at least on low-limit tables, and I've never seen anyone pull out the rule to ENFORCE a show, because most people will show upon request.
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This is generally true. Asking to see hole cards is still pretty rude in most cases, and is usually done just to get a read on a player.
 
EasyRhino

EasyRhino

Well-Known Member
#12
#12
Asking to see the cards spread would definitely be unusual. Handheld games have the cards changed more often (every two hours or so). Also, if a table is just opening up, they'll usually be breaking in new decks of cards.

Also, if there is a suspected problem with an autoshuffler, I've seen pit bosses count through the decks. Not verifying each and every card, but just checking the total.
 
S

SystemsTrader

Well-Known Member
#13
#13
Qwijibo said:
This is generally true. Asking to see hole cards is still pretty rude in most cases, and is usually done just to get a read on a player.
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Welcome aboard Qwijibo. Are you a large balding, North American ape like creature?
 
Doofus

Doofus

Well-Known Member
#17
#17
Sonny said:
The bigger casinos usually change cards once a day or so, but in a smaller casino you might have to ask.
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More than once I've sat through a shift change where new cards are spread out, with the dealer counting them to ensure all the new decks have the proper cards.

A PB at the Tropicana LV told me the trip before last that they change the cards every 8 hours.
 
C

callipygian

Well-Known Member
#18
#18
Doofus said:
A PB at the Tropicana LV told me the trip before last that they change the cards every 8 hours.
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This sounds right in my experience, but now that I think about it, I've noticed something really weird.
I've played maybe 50 hours of hand-shuffled games and 150 of ASM games, but all 3-4 times I've seen card changes have been in the hand-shuffled games. Anyone else have data points?
 
L

Licentia

Banned
#19
#19
moo321 said:
If you suspect the game is shorting their shoes get out of there! Call gaming control, and let them deal with it. Is this an Indian casino, or a corporation?
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Is an Indian casino a cause for concern?

Licentia.
 
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