Is this normal???

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ortango

Well-Known Member
#1
#1
Hey everyone, sorry for posting so many new threads but as a relatively new AP I am seeing things that I never saw before. Here is the one extremely obvious thing I have realized. PEOPLE SUCK AT BLACKJACK. Of course I never really knew this before I learned perfect BS, counting and indexes.

So here is my question. Is it normal to go 3 weeks, 60 hours of playing (I told you I am addicted to BJ) and not see a single advantage player? I am playing in Korea and I swear to you by all that is holy that I have not seen anyone play perfect BS, much less counting or using indexes. In fact yesterday was the first time that I saw a person who was not religiously staying on soft 18's.

Is this normal? I remember an article by Renzey saying that only 1 out of a 100 players are winners or something like that and now I really believe it. However, my theory is that since gambling is illegal for Korean citizens, and a large portion of the players are expats, they did not grow up playing casino games like many americans. American style cards are a national pastime in a way in the USA but most Korean families dont own a deck of American cards. I believe this is why there are such bad BJ players here... what do y'all think?
 
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nc-tom

Well-Known Member
#3
#3
You are correct most people do suck at BJ. This is why you see so many casinos with 6-5 bj and the use of CSM. the f@#king ploppies are mucking up the game for everyone.In the 4 years since i started playing BS and counting i can only say for sure that i have seen 2 players who were playing perfect BS and counting. What you see in Korea is pretty much the same thing you would see in the states sadly to say.
 
Mikeaber

Mikeaber

Well-Known Member
#4
#4
Interesting thought NC-Tom, but I don't agree with your conclusion. First of all, I do agree that people accepting 6:5 BJ is not necessarily good. However, I don't mind playing at a 3:2 table with people who are not playing "perfect BS". They are having fun and are paying the electricity bills for the casino so that the rest of us don't have to! Even if they do play perfect BS, they are going to generate money for the beancounters at their .65% disadvantage.

Something I have noticed over the past few years is that there are actually more good players (BS players I mean) than there were. Not Perfect of course, but more who are making "better" plays on the whole than there were even a few years ago. I think the popularity of BJ, the Internet and all the web sites that provide and encourage the use of Basic Strategy is paying off. Understand, I'm not saying at ALL that a majority are playing good BS...just more than there were a few years ago.
 
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nc-tom

Well-Known Member
#5
#5
Mikeaber said:
Interesting thought NC-Tom, but I don't agree with your conclusion. First of all, I do agree that people accepting 6:5 BJ is not necessarily good. However, I don't mind playing at a 3:2 table with people who are not playing "perfect BS". They are having fun and are paying the electricity bills for the casino so that the rest of us don't have to! Even if they do play perfect BS, they are going to generate money for the beancounters at their .65% disadvantage.

Something I have noticed over the past few years is that there are actually more good players (BS players I mean) than there were. Not Perfect of course, but more who are making "better" plays on the whole than there were even a few years ago. I think the popularity of BJ, the Internet and all the web sites that provide and encourage the use of Basic Strategy is paying off. Understand, I'm not saying at ALL that a majority are playing good BS...just more than there were a few years ago.
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Well Mike A that might be true where you play but i sure dont see it at the places i play. Now when i get to Nevada you do see a slight upgrade in play. But in the indian casinos the general level of play is horrible. Most of the players especially the asian ones are just action junkies looking to bet on anything they can.
 
Mikeaber

Mikeaber

Well-Known Member
#6
#6
nc-tom said:
Well Mike A that might be true where you play but i sure dont see it at the places i play. Now when i get to Nevada you do see a slight upgrade in play. But in the indian casinos the general level of play is horrible. Most of the players especially the asian ones are just action junkies looking to bet on anything they can.
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I see the uninformed play mostly in the form of "advice" given. Someone who obviously is just starting to learn something about Blackjack will ask what to do...say on that proverbial soft-18 against a dealer face. I never hear anyone say "hit the damn thing!" I only hear "Why ruin a good hand?" But even more than that, I hear people next to me really getting upset when someone refuses to hit a stiff when the dealer is showing a made hand.

But, in the Indian and State casinos (Missouri, Kansas and Oklahoma) I am seeing more people making correct plays than I've seen even as recently as a year ago. They are in the minority still, but not as rare as they used to be. This past weekend at AmeriStar, I did see three or four players at "my table" making correct plays...and a LOT more making voodoo plays.
 
sagefr0g

sagefr0g

Well-Known Member
#7
#7
Mikeaber said:
I see the uninformed play mostly in the form of "advice" given. Someone who obviously is just starting to learn something about Blackjack will ask what to do...say on that proverbial soft-18 against a dealer face. I never hear anyone say "hit the damn thing!" I only hear "Why ruin a good hand?" But even more than that, I hear people next to me really getting upset when someone refuses to hit a stiff when the dealer is showing a made hand.

But, in the Indian and State casinos (Missouri, Kansas and Oklahoma) I am seeing more people making correct plays than I've seen even as recently as a year ago. They are in the minority still, but not as rare as they used to be. This past weekend at AmeriStar, I did see three or four players at "my table" making correct plays...and a LOT more making voodoo plays.
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this is pretty much what i see. i see the gamit of hunch players, basic strategists, progressionists and a counter or two every so often. but i'd agree there is a level of not perfect but fair basic strategy play amongst the throng.
best regards,
mf fr0g :D
 
Mikeaber

Mikeaber

Well-Known Member
#10
#10
Sonny said:
I've never seen one of them either! :p At least not one that knew what they were doing.

-Sonny-
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I keep telling you guys...it ain't Outlaw Bikers who are the 1%ers....It's card counters!
 
ihate17

ihate17

Well-Known Member
#11
#11
Ortango, Anya ha seo

It has been a long time but I used to play at Walker Hill in Seoul quite a bit in the 70's when they dealt a very good blackjack game. Unfortunately a few things happened that killed that game and resulted in the bad game they have today.
I had been milking them for several years but they put up with me because my level of play was low back then and Japaneese tourists were horrid players and donating big bucks to the casino. Then a couple of very good American counting teams hit them and hit them hard and not knowing about this I showed up shortly after. A big win and I was beaten and robbed in their parking lot.
Anyway, some of the worst players I have every known are Asian born Korean and Japaneese players. Those born or raised here might be good or bad players, but those brought up in the old country know nothing of basic strategy and have no interest in learning.

Fred is totally out of whack if he says 1% of players are winning players. Perhaps 1% of players can play basic strategy perfectly and I seriously doubt that, and a perfect basic strategy player is still a long term loser. Of course he might be adding in the lucky guy who plays once or twice a year. I will also add that the vast majority of counters I have seen are losing counters at least in the learning stage and either give it up or learn to be winning counters. The percentage of winning counters at blackjack has got to be less than .1% of players, by what I see in Indian Casinos, Nevada and overseas. I also can play for weeks before sharing a table with a person who plays BS perfectly, much less another counter. See what they do with their soft 18's, a pair of 9's, hitting 12 vs 3, and their splits and soft doubles and you can tell fairly quickly.

ihate17
 
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ortango

Well-Known Member
#12
#12
ScottH said:
Card counters don't always play BS either! :)
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Of course I did mean either BS or counters playing with index. I can believe that the internet would make an impact on the level of the average player, since information is power and that power is free on the internet. But I'm glad you guys confirmed it for me because it is just hard for me to believe that people are too lazy to Google "blackjack strategy" when they are throwing so much of their hard earned money around.

BTW, I thought I finally found a good BS player tonight, who only made a few minor mistakes. Then he played the pair side bet on all hands for over an hour, which on another post, some nice folks posted the odds.. over 10% in the houses favor. Sigh....
 
ihate17

ihate17

Well-Known Member
#13
#13
They do not learn because they do not want to learn

ortango said:
Of course I did mean either BS or counters playing with index. I can believe that the internet would make an impact on the level of the average player, since information is power and that power is free on the internet. But I'm glad you guys confirmed it for me because it is just hard for me to believe that people are too lazy to Google "blackjack strategy" when they are throwing so much of their hard earned money around.

BTW, I thought I finally found a good BS player tonight, who only made a few minor mistakes. Then he played the pair side bet on all hands for over an hour, which on another post, some nice folks posted the odds.. over 10% in the houses favor. Sigh....
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People believe in luck. Look at the number of people who post here. Look at the number of newer players who ask questions here, compare that to the number of people who go to casinos. The information is as you say easily out there, but few want to get it.

ihate17
 
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blackjacknewcomer1111

Member
#14
#14
the other day i went to a casino for the first time and i knew nothing about blackjack. i was doing stuff like hitting with 14 while the dealer showed 5, i didn't double down or split the whole time, etc....but i still came out with around 3 times my starting balance. i came home and played playmoney blackjack at paradisepoker online and i went from like 1000 chips to 10,000 really quickly.

i took the time out to learn basic strategy the next day, and just now i played blackjack on paradisepoker online and i went from 10,000 to 2,000 chips in a short period of time. even though i played perfect basic strategy and was making much better decions, i still came out much worse now that i'm playing as a more knowledgable player. it was kind of annoying to be honest, to take the time to learn the strategy and just end up doing worse. but that's how gambling is, and i guess this just goes to show that unless you gamble alot on a consistent basis, then learning all the blackjack strategies and becoming an "advanced player" really isn't that productive. if you're just into gambling for a little fun every once in awhile then there isn't that much of a benefit from spending hours mastering all the advanced strategies.

hopefully i'll see some payoff for spending the time to learn basic strategy in a couple of days when i go back to the casino.
 
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ScottH

Well-Known Member
#15
#15
blackjacknewcomer1111 said:
the other day i went to a casino for the first time and i knew nothing about blackjack. i was doing stuff like hitting with 14 while the dealer showed 5, i didn't double down or split the whole time, etc....but i still came out with around 3 times my starting balance. i came home and played playmoney blackjack at paradisepoker online and i went from like 1000 chips to 10,000 really quickly.

i took the time out to learn basic strategy the next day, and just now i played blackjack on paradisepoker online and i went from 10,000 to 2,000 chips in a short period of time. even though i played perfect basic strategy and was making much better decions, i still came out much worse now that i'm playing as a more knowledgable player. it was kind of annoying to be honest, to take the time to learn the strategy and just end up doing worse. but that's how gambling is, and i guess this just goes to show that unless you gamble alot on a consistent basis, then learning all the blackjack strategies and becoming an "advanced player" really isn't that productive. if you're just into gambling for a little fun every once in awhile then there isn't that much of a benefit from spending hours mastering all the advanced strategies.

hopefully i'll see some payoff for spending the time to learn basic strategy in a couple of days when i go back to the casino.
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Well maybe you should just ditch basic strategy since it doesn't work for you! :joker:
 
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ScottH

Well-Known Member
#17
#17
blackjacknewcomer1111 said:
it was just that i got really lucky when i didn't know what i was doing and unlucky with when i did know what i was doing....i'm sure it will pay off in the long run :p
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Of course BS is the best way to play in the long run. At least for someone who isn't counting cards...
 
D

dacium

Well-Known Member
#18
#18
People are terrible terrible terrible at blackjack.

There seem to be only 3 types of players:
-Those who have no idea at all. These guys split at random and seem to only ever double on 11.
-Those who have a 'basic' idea that you hit to at least 17 if the dealer has a 7 or above, otherwise you stand on hard hands. Spliting and doubling still seems to be completely random.
-Those who know BS are obviously. They hit soft 18's at the right time, hit 12's at the right time. I have only seen about 2 players out of thousands play correctly, which is amazing since some of the limit games I watch are $100 or more.
 
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