It just wouldn't be fun......

[BJStanko]

Well guys maybe some of you will label me as an insane person, but.......

I really think that Blackjack would not be fun at all if casinos allowed us to count cards! This game of cat and mouse is great! It always gives you something to think about, actually BJ becomes great hobby, it is not about money at all for me, it is more about thinking about how to outsmart other person! It is not all about money.

And after all if casinos went exclusively on using CSM we would be ...........
Anyway it is better to get kicked out than to play against machine.

What do you think?

 

[KenSmith]

There's no doubt that the games are better when casinos have the right to back you off from playing. Look at the blackjack conditions in Atlantic City, where they can't ask you to leave because they think you are counting. Instead, they have to resort to other countermeasures such as shuffling early, etc.

As a result, the Atlantic City games are all 6 or 8 decks.

 

[Mikeaber]

Shuffle Master

Wow....what a spanking I took yesterday and this morning. No need to talk about the money lost...it wasn't significant. However, loosing as high a percentage of hands as I did, was significant! Shuffle Master, 6-deck. One deck is dealt while the machine is shuffling the other. One deck was okay. It seemed that when playing it, the percentages were about right (48% player wins). That's a rough estimate of course, I didn't actually count the win/loss. But on the other deck, over a period of hours (!!), it was seen time and again that long dealer win streaks would occur. EVERY time that deck was in play! It took only three hours to loose 40 units! I switched to another table of double deck that was also Shuffle Master shuffled. Same thing. Lost 20 units in about 30 minutes!

That casino (Golden Eagle a Kickapoo casino in Horton, KS) has the H-17's rule but other than that, good rules. About 8 miles from the Eagle is Sac & Fox (another Indian Casino) where the dealer stands on 17's. They hand-shuffle at S&F. I played for over 6 hours there and came out even and would have no doubt, been ahead had I not been gun shy over the train wreck at the Eagle.

All of that may be "variance" but it sure made me suspicious!

 

[BJStanko]

Mikeaber

Please next time do not play automatic shufflers!!

If we keep playing them, they will soon take over every single casino.
Somebody that knows so much about Blackjack like you should never accept to play game in which machine shuffles cards (even if that is the only available casino to you). If we talk about playing in games here shufflers are used than a lot of begginers and unexperienced players that come to this web site will folow your example, and gues what, we just helped casinos!!! You are always better off if you apply even a little bit of card counting. Even if is not profitable card counting(just a little bit of counting to help your play), it will always decrease house edge!

NO 6:5
NO shufflers

 

[tribute]

Shufflers

Are you talking about auto shufflers, or the CSM's(continuous shufflers)? I have no problem with automatic shufflers. It's the CSM's that are bad news. Most casinos I play in the south quit hand shuffling and installed auto shufflers that are level to the table. The dealer puts the entire stack, either 2 decks or 6 decks into the machine while removing a newly shuffled stack ready for play. Nothing wrong with that. The CSM is totally different. Dealer re-inserts each finished round into the machine continuously. You must certainly avoid the CSM's!

 

[BJStanko]

automatic shufflers are bad

They do have an impact on card counting. Cards are to evenly distributed. Which means that it doesn't create any significant edge. It becomes an dead even game. It is not profitable at all. No to mention that you can't use shuffle track and ace location!

 

[tribute]

Auto shufflers

I understand your concern about shuffle tracking and ace prediction, but please pardon my ignorance regarding card counting. A card counter in general doesn't care how evenly or unevenly the cards are distributed in a hand shuffle or machine shuffle. That's why he/she counts, to determine the ratio of high cards to low cards remaining in the un-dealt shoe, right? Card clumping ability is also not possible, I know, with machine shufflers. But how many players out there are good enough to do shuffle tracking, ace prediction, and be able to follow a group of cards being hand shuffled, anyway. My guess is, it's a very small number! Of course, I may be way out in left field about these things. Please enlighten me.

 

[Mikeaber]

No...the machines were NOT CSM's. They were the "standard" Shuffle Master machines used just about everywhere to speed up play. These are the same devices that are used in the World Series of Blackjack and other shoe dealt tournaments. Until this past trip, I've not looked at these machines as being anything to worry about. And, I still don't really. But the way things were happening, I sure flinched when that "second deck" (the red one) was in use. EVERY time it came into play, the table turned cold.

I'm sure that this was just blind bad luck. Those machines to the best of my knowledge, have no ability to detect the value of the cards being shuffled. They may provide the casino some latitude in specifying the number of riffles, washes, and strips during each round of shuffling. I do not think there is any way for them to "stack" the decks <smile>. But when it sounds like a duck, smells like a duck and walks like a duck, it is difficult not to look around for feathers!

I'd normally rather play the hand shuffled game. I'll sit for hours and hours at a table playing if it is a "good table" and I welcome that few minutes of down time (sandbox breaks and just time to get up and stretch.)

But then, there can be some really long breaks with the shufflers too. I've seen them jam, eat cards and make horrible noises <LOL> When that happens, they have to get the Floor involved to check the cards, replace damaged cards and possibly even declare a "hand shuffle" anyway. Yesterday, a dealer was pulling a freshly shuffled deck out of the hopper and "spilled" them. Floor told her to hand shuffle the deck but not until they had counted the deck to insure that none had fallen on the floor.

CSM's? I'd as soon play an on-line game as a game dealt from a CSM.

 

[BJStanko]

Auto shufflers are bad

First They are bad for mentality.

Casinos probably think, well if they accepted this they will probably accept CSM one day. AND THAt WILL HAPPEN. It is especially bad for beginners because they won't make dIfference in between csm and automatic shufflers. They will go to casino with some story that somebody told them how you can beat blackjack just knowing that 2,3,4,5,6, are +1 cards and 10s, and As are -1 cards, and there they are thinking they have key to every single bank. But insteAd they just lose and lose and lose! Casinos love that. People come to casinos thinking they are doing the right thing, and is easy as 1,2,3. Well it is not. It is not easy to make money in casino, specially if you are limited to card counting only.

Second, shuffle track, and ace location do not work at all when auto shufflers are used. For me that is enough. With card counting OK, you make some money, maybe, but being limited only to card counting, playing as single card counter is not profitable at all these days, unless you have $50 000 bankroll. Sorry but I want play blackjack just to make $10 per hour. If that is profit for somebody, than I can recommend community college, and getting some good certtficate, and making as much as $18 per hour.

Now we come to laziness. Shuffle track and ace location is hard. So what? Anybody can master it. But yes it takes months and months of practice. Today's books try to make you use some easy system. AS easy as 1,2,3, boom you are master, you are king.........bla bla bla......... yes only for lazy people who doesn't wanna study and spend hours practicing will be interested in something like that. And guess what, they will be losers big time! The only money maker will be book writer.
Very serious problem these days is layziness, that is heavily promoted in blackjack books ( I will be free to say that even some well known authors do not say anything about how hard it is actually to be profitable card counter just to sell their books better).

Automatic shufflers seem to create dead even game. Yes they are beatable but why don't you want to be in control. Why do you accept everything that is offered by casino. Why don't you want to have influence on game.
Automatic shufflers completely kill shuffle track and ace location, and that's why they are designed, not to speed up the game. Yes they most definitely speed up the game for casinos, and casino most definitely speed up process of draining your wallet.
If something is designed to improve casino income and at the same time kills some of advatage strategies is a bad thing that should be avoided!

The best example is Europe. Automatic shufflers took over completely, now CSM are getting ready to replace auto shufflers and take over completely. Being from Europe I know this very well. At least 90% of casinos use machines to shuffle cards. No more profit over there. And that all happened just because European players do not know anything about advantage strategies. They heard something that BJ can be beaten and than they play thinking it can be beaten but how actualy that is done well who cares ...it can be beaten right? Casinos are completely in control!

Same thing is going to happen in USA.
That is why we have to be very conservative about the games we play.

DISCIPLINE DISCIPLINE DISCIPLINE
SELECTIVITY SELECTIVITY SELECTIVITY
CONTROL CONTROL CONTROL

 

[Mikeaber]

You made two good points that I will agree with concerning Shuffle Master machines. First, they do hide cards while shuffling so anything dependent upon seeing the deck is null and void (Ace tracking and Shuffle Tracking).

Secondly, I conceed that there could be a valid concern about the acceptance of CSMs (Constant Shufflers) by American gamers as the result of the acceptance of Shuffle Master. I mean, you are correct, they are both machines and to the uninformed, one is as bad as the other.

Therein lies the danger. American players I see invading Vegas these days simply must not have a clue about Blackjack. Easy game where you just have to get as close to 21 as you can without going over. Nothing to it!

I've seen prospective players lined up 3-deep around a single deck table that pays 6:5. I've seen the same thing at a table with a CSM. There is no doubt in my mind that anyone who has researched the game a bit would know that either of these scenarios is very disadvantageous to the player. But if you try to explain this to any of these suckers, you at best just get polite attention and then the brushoff.

But obviously, from the hords of people waiting to play these games in Las Vegas, the majority of people playing BJ just do not know the game. There are other symptoms too. People who are playing with voodoo strategy. That includes blaming others at the table for their own misfortune. From my experience, over 75% of the players I've run into have some misconception of the impact of bad play by others impacting their own expectations.

Bottom line....I think there is very little doubt that whatever the casinos can get away with that is to their advantage, will be implemented. Bad table rules, CSMs, Smart Tables, short shuffles, backing off good players to make room for "marks"....it's already happening.

I just hope that there are still "good games" left for me to play up to the day they feed me to the worms!