KO Stratagy variation??

[Spooky78]

First I would like to thank anyone for any help.
After much research on card counting I decided to use the KO system because I'm primarily facing 6 deck shoes and two deck hand held in my area.

The rules H17, DAS up to 4 hands, Dbl on any 2, penetration is about 66% but varies sometimes. There is also a lucky ladies side bet.

I practice with 2 decks and use an IRC of 17 Key count is then 22 Pivot Point is 21 take insurance at 24 my bet spread is 1-5 betting 1 at 21 2 at 22 3 at 23 4 at 24 and 5 at 25 and I don’t raise the bet anymore in 2 deck. 6 decks I use a 1-10 spread. I also use Casino Vérité Blackjack V4 to practice.

After reading Knock-Out Black jack and several other counting books, which outline Red-7, High-Low, and High opt I & II. KO seems like it’s the system for me, however, when it comes to the strategy variation I’m a little unsure on what to do after reading the book cover to cover a couple times.

Ok here is the issue finally.

In the book it outlines the top 18 play changers from BS according the count, but it doesn't say exactly what to do so I'm kind of guessing here.

Top 18 plays in order of importance for 2 decks

1. Insurance 24+ (according to my modification)
2. 16 vs. 10 S 22+
3. 15 vs. 10 S 21+
4. 12 vs. 3 S 21+
5. 10 vs. 10 ?? 21+
6. 11 vs. Ace ?? 21+
7. 12 vs. 2 S 21+
8. 12 vs. 4 ?? 17+
9. 9 vs. 2 ?? 21+
10. 10 vs. ace ?? 21+
11. 9 vs. 7 ?? 21+
12. 8 vs. 6 ?? 21+
13. 16 vs. 9 S 21+
14. 13 vs. 2 ?? 17+
15. 8 vs. 5 ?? 21+
16. 12 vs. 5 ?? 17+
17. 12 vs. 6 ?? 17+
18. 13 vs. 3 ?? 17+
(For 6 deck numbers 8, 14, 16, 17 and 18 refer back to BS always)


Now I guess I'm asking if anyone can help me verify my numbers and help me figure out what to do in these 18 plays. The reason I wanted to start the count at 17 is because it avoids the negative numbers and if I get to a count of 10 I leave the table. It also makes the bet size easy to remember, 1 unit to 21 then 2 at 22 and so on till 5 at 25+. Also is there any info on when a Lucky Ladies bet should be taken according to a KO count?

Thanks again for your help,
Spooky

 

[Sonny]

I don’t use KO so I can’t verify those numbers, but here’s what action you should take at each index:

5. 10 vs. 10 DBL 21+
6. 11 vs. Ace DBL 21+
8. 12 vs. 4 S 17+
9. 9 vs. 2 DBL 21+
10. 10 vs. ace DBL 21+
11. 9 vs. 7 DBL 21+
12. 8 vs. 6 DBL 21+
14. 13 vs. 2 S 17+
15. 8 vs. 5 DBL 21+
16. 12 vs. 5 S 17+
17. 12 vs. 6 S 17+
18. 13 vs. 3 S 17+

-Sonny-

 

[Spooky78]

Thank you Sonny this clears up a lot.

 

[Brock Windsor]

Also is there any info on when a Lucky Ladies bet should be taken according to a KO count?

http://web.archive.org/web/20030407221336/cardcounter.com/Lucky_Ladies.htm

There are also adjustments if you are sidecounting Queen of Hearts. Be careful betting with KO, it will understate your advantage early in the shoe and overstate your advantage at the end of the shoe. You can strengthen the system by true counting it (TKO) and wonging out all negative counts.
BW

 

[SD Padres]

I also use the K-O Strategy. I mainly play double deck and use the full indexes. I feel it's worth the extra work because double deck is much more volatile then say 6 or 8 deck games. However when I do play shoe games I have been using the reKO and find I'm not giving up that much (vs KO Preferred) and it's so much easier to use.

 

[Spooky78]

Thanks again guys here is a recap

Top 18 Plays in order of importance
Insurance 24+ (according to my modification)
16 vs. 10 S 22+
15 vs. 10 S 21+
12 vs. 3 S 21+
10 vs. 10 DBL 21+
11 vs. A DBL 21+
12 vs. 2 S 21+
12 vs. 4 S 17+
9 vs. 2 DBL 21+
10 vs. A DBL 21+
9 vs. 7 DBL 21+
8 vs. 6 DBL 21+
16 vs. 9 S 21+
13 vs. 2 S 17+
8 vs. 5 DBL 21+
12 vs. 5 S 17+
12 vs. 6 S 17+
13 vs. 3 S 17+

There is Luck Laidies Info at (Dead link: http://web.archive.org/web/200304072...cky_Ladies.htm)


reKO is good for shoe games also Wonging out at Neg counts or in my case out at a count of 10 (ill have to look reKO up)
I also need to look up TKO
For 6 Deck if i use an IRC of 17 the Key count is 33 and i should use a 1-8 or 10 bet spread.

Can anyone verify my numbers for 2 deck and help me figure out 6 deck numbers?

Does anyone have any advice on counting handheld games?

I know i should have about a $3k bank roll to be successful with a $5 min table however I dont have 3k i am saving a bank roll up and i know that i have a 53% chance of doubling in 100 hands with $100 i dont mind loosing. Is this to risky if I can replenish this $100 in 2 weeks? There are also $2 and $3 tables in my area ($2 is only on tuesday one table at one casino the $3 is everyday one table at several casinos) should i play these games or not same rules as original post apply only they are 6deck shoes and the tables are almost always packed.

 

[aslan]

First I would like to thank anyone for any help.
After much research on card counting I decided to use the KO system because I'm primarily facing 6 deck shoes and two deck hand held in my area.

The rules H17, DAS up to 4 hands, Dbl on any 2, penetration is about 66% but varies sometimes. There is also a lucky ladies side bet.

I practice with 2 decks and use an IRC of 17 Key count is then 22 Pivot Point is 21 take insurance at 24 my bet spread is 1-5 betting 1 at 21 2 at 22 3 at 23 4 at 24 and 5 at 25 and I don’t raise the bet anymore in 2 deck. 6 decks I use a 1-10 spread. I also use Casino Vérité Blackjack V4 to practice.

After reading Knock-Out Black jack and several other counting books, which outline Red-7, High-Low, and High opt I & II. KO seems like it’s the system for me, however, when it comes to the strategy variation I’m a little unsure on what to do after reading the book cover to cover a couple times.

Ok here is the issue finally.

In the book it outlines the top 18 play changers from BS according the count, but it doesn't say exactly what to do so I'm kind of guessing here.

Top 18 plays in order of importance for 2 decks

1. Insurance 24+ (according to my modification)
2. 16 vs. 10 S 22+
3. 15 vs. 10 S 21+
4. 12 vs. 3 S 21+
5. 10 vs. 10 ?? 21+
6. 11 vs. Ace ?? 21+
7. 12 vs. 2 S 21+
8. 12 vs. 4 ?? 17+
9. 9 vs. 2 ?? 21+
10. 10 vs. ace ?? 21+
11. 9 vs. 7 ?? 21+
12. 8 vs. 6 ?? 21+
13. 16 vs. 9 S 21+
14. 13 vs. 2 ?? 17+
15. 8 vs. 5 ?? 21+
16. 12 vs. 5 ?? 17+
17. 12 vs. 6 ?? 17+
18. 13 vs. 3 ?? 17+
(For 6 deck numbers 8, 14, 16, 17 and 18 refer back to BS always)


Now I guess I'm asking if anyone can help me verify my numbers and help me figure out what to do in these 18 plays. The reason I wanted to start the count at 17 is because it avoids the negative numbers and if I get to a count of 10 I leave the table. It also makes the bet size easy to remember, 1 unit to 21 then 2 at 22 and so on till 5 at 25+. Also is there any info on when a Lucky Ladies bet should be taken according to a KO count?

Thanks again for your help,
Spooky

Using an IRC of 17, your pivot point would not be 21, but instead, it would be 25. You did what I did at first, you used an IRC where you normally would not encounter negative numbers, but in doing so, you made it hard to figure out where you are at any given point in time. I have a suggestion where you will never encounter negative numbers and you will always know when you are at pivot point of +4 true count. Simply set your pivot point at 104. In two deck, where your pivot point is 4, and your key count is 1, this converts to 104 and 101. Simpler than simple. Since in KO 2 deck your IRC is -4, then iin this system it becomes 96, which is four less than 100 (the zero point). With this counting convention, you will be able to follow everything in the KO book with ease. Insurance, which is +3 in KO, becomes simply 103. Some people even drop the one hundred part when they pass zero; ie, 96, 97, 98, 99, 100, 1, 2, 3, etc. I don't find the hundred difficult, so I leave it in. Also, it becomes easy to convert to true count using the TKO conversion chart, which has appeared here in the forum several times.

For 8 deck IRC = 72, KC = 94, PP = 104
For 6 deck IRC = 80. KC = 96, PP = 104
For 2 deck, IRC = 96, KC = 1, PP =104
For 1 deck IRC = 100, KC = 102, PP = 104

It's easy. And pivot point is always 104 (+4), just as in the original system.
Also, it makes your preferred counts easy. 1 and 2 deck preferred plays begin at IRC, 16 vs 10 begins at KC, and all the other preferred plays begin at pivot point of 104, except insurance, which begins at 103. :dog:

 

[aslan]

Spooky

I'm a KO counter. I'm on hiatus right now. The one piece of advice I would give any new counter, besides the usual RoR, and pick the right games advice, is to have plenty of BR for the level you want to play. That's why I'm on hiatus. I found that $10 games were boring with a capital B and not worth the effort for the the amount of money potential. I have found from experience that I will not be happy betting less that $25 games and would prefer $100 min games. The rule of thumb given by the KO book is that you should have a BR at leasy 100 times your max bet, so that at $25 min 6-deck games you would need at least $25,000 BR and for the $100 game, $100,000 BR. By BR I take it to mean the amount of money you have and are willing to risk investing in blackjack. (Session BR is a much smaller animal.) You can jigger your RoR so that you can minimize your chances of ever losing such a large amount, but you may not be happy with how long it will take you to realize any significant profit if you set it too low; also, of course, you may need significantly more BR.

If you don't have much BR or are not willing to risk much, I'd advise $5 min (or less) games where you can experience what it's all about without risking too much. You can then decide what kind of money potential will keep you interested. It's really all a matter of how much you want to make and how much you are willing to risk to get it, which in the final analysis only you can decide.

And above all else (I guess this makes two pieces of advice), don't do it unless you are having fun doing it. It's just too tedious, requires too much discipline, and too subject to hair-raising ups and downs, to be something you'd want to do if it isn't also fun for you. :dog:

 

[Spooky78]

Thank you Aslan for your input. Using the high numbers such as 100 confuses me. Its that zero point and I also want to keep the betting simple. I took the numbers you gave me and made some adjustments to give me smaller numbers and hopefully keep me out of the neg. I don't have SD or 8D available in my area but I changed those anyway.

Here are those numbers
For 8 deck IRC = 29, KC = 51, PP = 61 Insure at 64 1-8 or 10 bet spread
For 6 deck IRC = 17. KC = 33, PP = 41 insure at 44 1-8 or 10 bet spread
For 2 deck, IRC = 13, KC = 18, PP =21 insure at 24 1-5 bet spread
For 1 deck IRC = 7, KC = 9, PP = 11 insure at 14 1-5 bet spread

These number changes would change the 18 plays to...

Top 18 Plays in order of importance For KO
1. Insurance PP + 3
2. 16 vs. 10 S PP+1
3. 15 vs. 10 S PP+
4. 12 vs. 3 S PP+
5. 10 vs. 10 DBL PP+
6. 11 vs. A DBL PP+
7. 12 vs. 2 S PP+
8. 12 vs. 4 S KC+
9. 9 vs. 2 DBL PP+
10. 10 vs. A DBL PP+
11. 9 vs. 7 DBL PP+
12. 8 vs. 6 DBL PP+
13. 16 vs. 9 S PP+
14. 13 vs. 2 S KC+
15. 8 vs. 5 DBL PP+
16. 12 vs. 5 S KC+
17. 12 vs. 6 S KC+
18. 13 vs. 3 S KC+

As I understand it the KC shows a slight advantage and is only really used for play variation but the PP is where I should start increasing my bet ie. 1 unit at PP and then 2 units at PP+1 and is used for a bigger play variation. Is this correct?

As far as the BR I am limited to the $5 & $10 tables right now and my RoR is huge but I have a small expendable and replenish able BR so the RoR doesn’t bother me I figure it only gets better if I win and for the time being all of the winnings just ad to the overall BR. If I loose, it’s no big deal because I’m not playing with money that’s going to hurt me if its not there and it wont hurt my feelings either lol I have been used to loosing at the BJ table because I only played BS for a long time. This is kind of good for me though as I am still learning and need the little game to build the confidence for the bigger game later and yes this is very fun for me.

 

[SD Padres]

Here are those numbers

Here are those numbers
For 8 deck IRC = 29, KC = 51, PP = 61 Insure at 64 1-8 or 10 bet spread
For 6 deck IRC = 17. KC = 33, PP = 41 insure at 44 1-8 or 10 bet spread
For 2 deck, IRC = 13, KC = 18, PP =21 insure at 24 1-5 bet spread
For 1 deck IRC = 7, KC = 9, PP = 11 insure at 14 1-5 bet spread


Spooky78,

I may be way off here ( and please...anyone feel free to correct me) but I believe you should take insurance 1 point below your pivot point.

 

[golfnut101]

KO Insurance

correct

 

[golfnut101]

Here are those numbers
For 8 deck IRC = 29, KC = 51, PP = 61 Insure at 64 1-8 or 10 bet spread
For 6 deck IRC = 17. KC = 33, PP = 41 insure at 44 1-8 or 10 bet spread
For 2 deck, IRC = 13, KC = 18, PP =21 insure at 24 1-5 bet spread
For 1 deck IRC = 7, KC = 9, PP = 11 insure at 14 1-5 bet spread

hey spook

Do you have the book ? Check your math my friend. If your IRC is 17 for a 6d, then your KC would be 33, you would take insurance at 40, not at 41, and your pivot then becomes 41(when your matrix plays will come into play)Appendix XIII discusses customizing the KO count. If you look at the IRC/KC they provide in the book, you will see that for a 6d game, their is a difference of 16(-20 to -4) from the IRC to the KC. Then, they add 7 to the KC, to get to the insurance play(-4 to +3)the rest of the matrix play, are at +4. Alot of different numbers are being thrown at you on this thread. Do your homework from the book, not mine or anyone elses posts ! Their a re a couple of members who have great posts on converting to true count for betting purposes. Lastly, sounds like you are using KO rookie if you jump at the KC to your big bet. Be careful, it will be extremely volatile, with minimal ev at best.
For shoe games, getting a feel for early, mid and late shoe pos. counts can really make a difference with KO. That is why KO-P or TKO is much more effective. Im not a math guy, but, from experience, I know what to look for alot better now than just ramping my bet to max bet once I get to KC.
Sorry if this is confusing you. If their is anything I can do, let me know.
Good luck with the 2d stuff.

 

[Spooky78]

Top 18 Plays in order of importance For KO
1. Insurance PP -1
2. 16 vs. 10 S PP+1
3. 15 vs. 10 S PP+
4. 12 vs. 3 S PP+
5. 10 vs. 10 DBL PP+
6. 11 vs. A DBL PP+
7. 12 vs. 2 S PP+
8. 12 vs. 4 S KC+
9. 9 vs. 2 DBL PP+
10. 10 vs. A DBL PP+
11. 9 vs. 7 DBL PP+
12. 8 vs. 6 DBL PP+
13. 16 vs. 9 S PP+
14. 13 vs. 2 S KC+
15. 8 vs. 5 DBL PP+
16. 12 vs. 5 S KC+
17. 12 vs. 6 S KC+
18. 13 vs. 3 S KC+

For 8 deck IRC = 30, KC = 52, PP = 62
Insure at 61 1-8 or 10 bet spread (Start bet increase at 52)

For 6 deck IRC = 16. KC = 32, PP = 40
Insure at 39 1-8 or 10 bet spread (Start bet increase at 32)

For 2 deck, IRC = 17, KC = 22, PP =25
Insure at 24 1-5 bet spread (Start bet increase at 22)

For 1 deck IRC = 10, KC = 12, PP = 14
Insure at 13 1-5 bet spread (Start bet increase at 12)

I have betting schedules in excel if you want to see them just let me know.

Ok I know my my numbers are correct now thanks guys for your help and yes the book says insure 1 point below PP.

Golf i am trying to use the KO prefered or kelly betting and trying to set all this up in Casino Vérité Blackjack V4 so i can practice in somewhat of a casino environment (with the kids bugging me) without risking the cash but my numbers were all wrong to do it correctly. I also figured out the where i was wanting to bet was all wrong i want to start increasing my bet at the KEY COUNT (for some reason this wasn't clear to me after reading the book a couple times lol) so with all this info i wanted to change my numbers again. (Sorry for this pain-staking spooky deep blackjack card counting obsesive thought.) the whole idea of this was to keep the betting easy so i need to make key counts SD 12, DD 22, 6D 42, 8D 62 so when ever i get to the respective *2 i know to bet 2 units and at *3 i bet 3 units. although i know it will be a bit different for 6D and 8D, but im primarily concerned with DD.

Thanks again for all your help maybe some day ill take them for millions but untill then i have a lot of work to do lol.

 

[aslan]

Thank you Aslan for your input. Using the high numbers such as 100 confuses me. Its that zero point and I also want to keep the betting simple. I took the numbers you gave me and made some adjustments to give me smaller numbers and hopefully keep me out of the neg. I don't have SD or 8D available in my area but I changed those anyway.

Here are those numbers
For 8 deck IRC = 29, KC = 51, PP = 61 Insure at 64 1-8 or 10 bet spread
For 6 deck IRC = 17. KC = 33, PP = 41 insure at 44 1-8 or 10 bet spread
For 2 deck, IRC = 13, KC = 18, PP =21 insure at 24 1-5 bet spread
For 1 deck IRC = 7, KC = 9, PP = 11 insure at 14 1-5 bet spread

These number changes would change the 18 plays to...

Top 18 Plays in order of importance For KO
1. Insurance PP + 3
2. 16 vs. 10 S PP+1
3. 15 vs. 10 S PP+
4. 12 vs. 3 S PP+
5. 10 vs. 10 DBL PP+
6. 11 vs. A DBL PP+
7. 12 vs. 2 S PP+
8. 12 vs. 4 S KC+
9. 9 vs. 2 DBL PP+
10. 10 vs. A DBL PP+
11. 9 vs. 7 DBL PP+
12. 8 vs. 6 DBL PP+
13. 16 vs. 9 S PP+
14. 13 vs. 2 S KC+
15. 8 vs. 5 DBL PP+
16. 12 vs. 5 S KC+
17. 12 vs. 6 S KC+
18. 13 vs. 3 S KC+

As I understand it the KC shows a slight advantage and is only really used for play variation but the PP is where I should start increasing my bet ie. 1 unit at PP and then 2 units at PP+1 and is used for a bigger play variation. Is this correct?

As far as the BR I am limited to the $5 & $10 tables right now and my RoR is huge but I have a small expendable and replenish able BR so the RoR doesn’t bother me I figure it only gets better if I win and for the time being all of the winnings just ad to the overall BR. If I loose, it’s no big deal because I’m not playing with money that’s going to hurt me if its not there and it wont hurt my feelings either lol I have been used to loosing at the BJ table because I only played BS for a long time. This is kind of good for me though as I am still learning and need the little game to build the confidence for the bigger game later and yes this is very fun for me.

You can use whatever IRC you want, but the count at which you should take insurance is always one less than the pivot point. For some reason you have set your insurance at pivot point plus 3. The reason for this is that in KO the PP is always at True Count +4. So it's a sure peg on which to hang your hat. Insurance is always one point less and above.

The key count is where you begin to have an advantage and if you do not begin to bet higher here, you will not achieve your intended E.V., unless you make some other adjustments in your betting progression which you are not advanced enough to make at this point. The pivot point is NOT where you begin increasing your bet. The pivot point is where you should be betting your MAXIMUM bet. It represents the END of bet increases, not the beginning. Nothing is done just for play variation. The suggested betting increases as described in the KO book are bets that are proportional to your actual advantage. If you vary from them, you do so at your own peril, and with no rhyme or reason. It's always good to get more money out when you have the advantage, but if you arbitrarily decide what to bet you are fooling with your Risk of Ruin and possibly risking loss of your bankroll. You say that is doesn't matter, but it sounds like you are talking about your "session" bankroll, not your actual bankroll. RoR is figured on your long term bankroll, not session bankroll. You can lose tens of thousands of dollars in $5 and $10 min games if you do not pay close attention to the amounts you are betting in positive counts and what your advantage is with each variation in bet. For example, you have it set that you don't even begin increasing your bet until you reach pivot point. Therefore, at PP you will always be betting too little, so you will likely not achieve your E.V., plus the fact that you will have passed up all of the territory between KC and PP, plus the fact that you don't get many hands above PP unless you have very good penetration, which is seldom if ever the case anywhere I've been on the east coast or Vegas. The way you have it set, I think the house advantage will eventually kill you.

I didn't check all your numbers, but KO is simple: there are three times you use preferred strategy--IRC, KC and PP, with the exception of insurance which is always PP-1. A quick glance at your numbers show that you don't have it right.

You need to understand the KO book. Read it slowly for comprehension. Good luck.

 

[Spooky78]

Aslan, I did relize the error of my ways and I adjusted for it in my last post. Those are the numbers i am going off of now.

As for the BR, I really don't have much but what I do have in expendable income I can get back very easlily if I loose. I do understand the swings I can take when playing and im ok with it, it can't be any worse than what I have done already.

Reading the book only does so much for me. I feel communicating about the subject helps me learn more and understand it better and clear up any misconseptions I may have.

So, in short, the constructive critisism you and the others have given me has really helped me to understand the KO system.

I believe my newest set of numbers are correct feel free to look them over and correct me if im wrong, if they are correct then maybe this stings of posts will help clear up any questions others may have.
Spooky

 

[golfnut101]

practice

hey Spooky

Its one thing to go over the counting system-it's totally another to get the most out of it. Theirs three things you can do to achieve it;

1. PRACTICE
2. PRACTICE
3. PRACTICE

Oh yeah, I forgot to mention one more thing that will help. Be prepared to lose money-because you will. Stay disciplined and get out of neg counts, and assess your play always.

best of luck

 

[aslan]

Aslan, I did relize the error of my ways and I adjusted for it in my last post. Those are the numbers i am going off of now.

Spooky

I was addressing your latest post and the numbers are still incorrect as stated in my previous post. You best preferred strategy is insurance and you have it set too high for one thing.

 

[nbohr99]

practice KO Count system online for free

For anyone reading this thread, there is a great website that allows you to practice the KO Count method online for free. The website is...

http://www.card-counting-blackjack.com

It will automatically keep the KO count for you, which you can choose to display or hide. It's great for double checking your own internal count. It also shows you how many of each card has been played, so you can customize the KO Count as described in post.

Best of all, it's absolute free to use.

 

[aslan]

For anyone reading this thread, there is a great website that allows you to practice the KO Count method online for free. The website is...

http://www.card-counting-blackjack.com

It will automatically keep the KO count for you, which you can choose to display or hide. It's great for double checking your own internal count. It also shows you how many of each card has been played, so you can customize the KO Count as described in post.

Best of all, it's absolute free to use.

Kewl! Thanks!