Man, this "counting" stuff is hard.

[sagefr0g]

Okay who are you? And what have you done with easy rhino. That just doesnt sound like the easy rhino i know.

Sounds like your burnin yourself out. After several hours of losing streaks you inexplicably realize just how much work is involved It then becomes a time a descision will have to made.
Either your willing to grind it out through all those losing streaks and work for it. Or you can just not care and allow your game to deteriorate.

You've came to far. Worked to hard. To have that sort of attitude. Ive been practicing for over ten years and would die for some of the oppurtinitys you guys have.
Just remember what clint eastwood said in highplains drifter. When things look bad and theres no hope. Its time to get mean!:devil:

lol, thats what i was gonna say. wassup ER you sound depressed with that who cares outlook. :cat:

 

[EasyRhino]

whoah.

Huh, I realized I hadn't made an update here in a about a month. The main reason was that I hadn't played in about a month. Was a little busy with travel, but also, I just didn't feel like it. I frankly thought I had better things to do. Like watching TV, or staring at the wall.

But this weekend, the crushing weight of local casino promotional mailers finally got to me, and I went on a coupon run to a few different local joints (I also kept a closer track on mileage to see how much each coupon run cost me in gas).

Anyway, since I hadn't really done a lick of card-counting in a month, so it was nice that it really is sort of like riding a bike. I also appreciated how simple KO is. I was able to jump in without any problems.

Over this weekend, I ended up winning everywhere I went. It was a little bit embarassing. All of the sessions were fairly short, some where extra short, because I left when I was up over 20 units and the shoe ended (since my initial buy-ins were 20 units, it seemed like a good time to stop after, as far as the casino was concerned, I had "doubled up"). At the last final joint I visited, I had a minor dose of drama: I was played through shoe-and-a-half and got pounded in neutral counts, and had just blown through my first $400 buyin, and nursed the chips, finally having to buy in again just as the account turned positive. And boy, did I start steaming, throwing down elevated and maximum bets until the end of the shoe, where I promptly got the heck out of Dodge. I might have gotten a bit carried away, since my spread ended up being from 1x$20 to $2x200. Oopsie :grin:. Also, I believe that 2x$200 was the largest intentional starting bet I've placed in my career to date.

Combined with the two free meals and $65 in cashback mailers, it was an enjoyable way to while away part of the weekend.

From a bankroll perspective, the end of July marked the time when Neteller finally unfroze its funds, and I got almost $5k in my bank account that had been frozen since fargin' January. At the time, it was near-crippling to my online bonus-hustling bankroll (I had to start over with my own funds). But now, it's not really life-changing, or even game-changing (but it's still a nice chunk of change).

Online activity has curtailed dramatically, but over the last couple weeks, I hit a lucky streak on four fairly large online bonuses in a row, so there's a few grand of winnings working it's way through the payout process. I hope to see it in within a month.

What I'm getting at, is that my bankroll's at one of those all-too-brief "all time highs" that everyone's a big fan of.

 

[k4ir0s]

"He was dealt 6,6 vs dealer 3. While he was pondering what to do, I offered to help him split the sixes. We went "teamsies", and the dealer ended up busting. It was only when I got back to the hotel room that I looked up what the odds were with that play... oops. I really had no business taking a piece of that hand (although it was only slightly negative EV for splitting)."

I dont understand, arent you suppose to split 66 vs 3?

 

[21forme]

"He was dealt 6,6 vs dealer 3. While he was pondering what to do, I offered to help him split the sixes. We went "teamsies", and the dealer ended up busting. It was only when I got back to the hotel room that I looked up what the odds were with that play... oops. I really had no business taking a piece of that hand (although it was only slightly negative EV for splitting)."

I dont understand, arent you suppose to split 66 vs 3?

Yes, but it's a defensive play like splitting 8,8, meaning your EV is better with spitting than playing it as a 12. However it's still a losing hand.

 

[ChefJJ]

Anyway, since I hadn't really done a lick of card-counting in a month, so it was nice that it really is sort of like riding a bike. I also appreciated how simple KO is. I was able to jump in without any problems.

Not to sound like a KO shill, but that is one of the biggest reasons I roll with KO. Good to hear an update from you though ER.

good luck

 

[k4ir0s]

Another question.
How do those online bonuses work? Never heard of them(until now)

 

[EasyRhino]

My impromptu vegas trip.

Well, golly, went another month without play (pesky day job), but then last thursday night I got a call from some friends "hey, we're going to Vegas and have an extra spot in the car, wanna come?". Oh, OK, fine I guess.

My buddies are a low-rolling, non-advantage-playing group. But they did have some comp-hustling instincts, as one of their side bets at each casino was who could get free drinks on the casino floor losing the least amount of money. A couple times, several of us sat down at low-limit tables (Slots-a-fun and Hooters), and just messed around. They were flat-betting the minimum and I was throttling my betting way back, doing a polite spread from the table minimums. It was mainly an opportunity to get drunk and BS with my buddies, and was quite enjoyable. I did have a very lucky streak at Slotsafun though (won $600 with no bet over $50), and slightly regretted not having been playing my max. But my friends told me explicitly that if they got 86'd from a casino from my counting, then they would not invite me along any more

I did also manage to get in some "serious" play at a few places, where I used my full max bet ($300). I really wanted to see if I could pull off playing extended sessions for comps (vs hit-and-run play). In other words, I wanted to test the casinos more than myself. (In hindsight, it would have been smarter to at least hit and run a place a couple of times before camping out, but I've never been a strategical thinker)

The biggest downers of the were: the traffic on I-15, staying at Circus Circus (can't wait for its implosion), and not really getting in that much play (<15 hours). Also, I didn't make it to El Cortez, which is kind of a shame.

Highlights of the trip:

- Arbitrarily picking one of the nicer Strip "carpet joints", and basically doing everything wrong. Camping out for about five hours at the same shoe game, through a shift change, nearly play-all. All I had to protect me from getting the boot was my "act" (nonexistant), my drunkeness, and some modest playing and betting cover. Why was this a highlight? I seemed to be well beneath the casino's radar for any sort of heat. I guess a $300 bet really isn't a hill of beans when the main floor's table limits are $5,000.

- Having a very lengthy, loud, and animated conversation with a dealer and a civilian about a topic totally unrelated to blackjack, and still keeping the count just fine, and making my playing decisions with no problems.

- Having one garrulous dealer, who liked to strongly push a reasonable facsimile of basic strategy on players, size me up after a stretch of heads-up play, and say "Well, I've got to say you're a... *pause* ...okay blackjack player. You've basically got the right idea behind basic strategy, and that's better than most". The back-handed compliment just totally made my day. Only could have been better if it was the pit telling me this.

- Getting to walk to the cashier with a few yellow ($1k) chips. I had handled $1k chips once or twice before, but they weren't yellow "bananas", and they just felt so right.

- Getting to play games with the now old-fashioned "Vegas Strip rules" (S17, DOA, DAS, LS).

- Not getting preferentially shuffled up on at Slotsafun (playing the shoe game helped)

- Scoring a comp for four of us to an (expensive!) buffet on Saturday night. Plus, we got to skip past the incredibly long line in the VIP lane, impressing my buddies. I felt like a damn rock star. Hopefully I'll score some free rooms or other promotion-type things.

- Walking away from a table, surprised by the weight in my pocket, which turned out to be $600 in rat-holed chips.

- Doing a little bit of high-roller gawking. Saw one dude at Treasure Island with a tower of bananas on the felt playing baccarat, probably 30-50 chips. Pretty soon you're talking real money.

The bankroll went through a couple of notable fluctuations. During a single wong into a high count at a crowded table, I managed to lose $1200, which was a bit jarring. Later that day, at a different store, I played one shoe, betting big off the top on my initial bet and only dropping bets after losses, and had a great win streak, winning about $1500. The most drama was on Sunday morning, during a longer session, when I was digging deeper and deeper into my wallet (down probably $2600), but then, only about an hour before I needed to leave, I stumbled into one of those stubbornly high counts that refuses to drop, and went on a streak, rebounding to a nice win.

I ended up with a $2500 win after the end of the trip. Yay. Sure, I've had bigger wins, in shorter times, while betting less, but the result was still above my EV for the trip. Also, the win also nudged my bankroll over the $40k mark. Yay.

 

[SilentBob420BMFJ]

After a month or so of sporadic study and drill, I hit the casino with great anticipation of my awesome KO-coundint powers.

Found a $5 dollar table with a nice, slow dealer. Backcounted (shamelessly) through 1.9 6-deck shoes until the count finally got positive. Played one or two hands before the shoe was empty. Decided to stay in for the next shoe, and was able to more or less muddle through the count, with some difficulty.

Then a replacement dealer came in, and, well, it was pretty horrible. I didn't have a shot at keeping up. Even his announcing of everybody's hand was distracting me (ALL THOSE NUMBERS!!). Still won a little bit of money thanks to basic strategy and dumb luck.

I'm not sure if I have a point here.

For those who can actually pull this off, how long did the theory-into-practice stage take you?

i counted down a deck like 60 times, and thats all the practice i had, i didnt do anything else, and im assuming i learned faster than most, as i have no trouble at all keeping the count, but i havent memorized the indexes (i just keep my indexes on a small piece of paper in front of me), and im not very good at true count conversion (im not fast enuf), but its ok cuz i dont use it much, as i flat bet.. i guess you could say im not using counting to its full potential, but until my bankroll goes way up by other means, i cant spread.. but hey, im still playing at a slight advantage, as i only play positive counts

 

[EasyRhino]

You'll want to be able to do the index plays without the piece of paper. Some casinos don't like you to have anything on the table except drinks or cigarettes. I've even been told to remove a basic strategy card... but if I had any questions I could ask the dealer *cringe*.

 

[Kaiser]

Index numbers on a piece of paper? I can't believe they let you do that.

Seriously though, make up some flashcards and you'll learn those in no time at all. It's not that hard. Why go in there with a crutch? Commit that easy stuff to memory and you can use all your brain cycles on other stuff like true count conversion.

BTW, I always liked dealers who told people the card totals when I was first learning. I didn't have to add the cards myself, I just worried about the count.

 

[AnIrishmannot2brite]

After a month or so of sporadic study and drill, I hit the casino with great anticipation of my awesome KO-coundint powers.

Found a $5 dollar table with a nice, slow dealer. Backcounted (shamelessly) through 1.9 6-deck shoes until the count finally got positive. Played one or two hands before the shoe was empty. Decided to stay in for the next shoe, and was able to more or less muddle through the count, with some difficulty.

Then a replacement dealer came in, and, well, it was pretty horrible. I didn't have a shot at keeping up. Even his announcing of everybody's hand was distracting me (ALL THOSE NUMBERS!!). Still won a little bit of money thanks to basic strategy and dumb luck.

I'm not sure if I have a point here.

For those who can actually pull this off, how long did the theory-into-practice stage take you?

Here's a card counting task I figured and taught myself a couple years back. You can practice while driving a car. Now of course we don't want you to be distracted while driving. However since you'll be watching the cars in front you should be fine. It may even help your driving even if it is yet another multi task.

Take a license plate like SH4 82510

OK all numbers are the same as playing cards.

4, 2, 5 would be counted as positive. so that = 3+

1, and 0 are the ace and ten respectively = 2-

Now the first half of the alphabet is a "plus" card and the second half is negative. Or A through M is positive and N through Z is negative.

S is in the second half of the alphabet so = 1-

H is in the first half so it = 1+

Total them all up and you've got

3+
2-
1-
1+
1+ running count.

I was doing a lot of commuting when i figured out this trick and it really helped.

But then again I was one of those hard cases who learned counting first and basic strategy later. Luckily I didn't lose much money in the process.

 

[EasyRhino]

This weekend got a little bit terrifying.

It was a long weekend for me, and I was able to get in a decent amount of play at all of the various local casinos (I had a lot of pent-up coupon-running to do also).

Managed to play doubledeck games the entire time, usually with 0, 1, or 2 other players, and was using a "polite" 6x bet spread with a $300 max (I'd play two hands sometimes also). One concession I made to inefficiency was that I'd place a fairly large bet as soon as I sat down at a table, to reduce concerns of hearing "black action" and "checks play" called. During this whole time, I ended up with a lot of good betting opportunities?

The scary part? Well, from the beginning, I started losing money fast. We're talking like $2000 in 20 minutes... we're talking entire DD "shoes" where I didn't win a single hand in heads up play. I was losing money every way you could lose it, big bets, small bets, dealers getting BJ's, dealers drawing to ridiculous many-carded 21s, way-too-many stiffs in a row, etc. etc. etc.

The very first place I went did enough damage to my initial stake of cash ($3k) that I had to hit up the ATM ($2k). I continued to hemorrhage cash at the next two joints, to where where I thought a second trip to the ATM (another $2k) would be prudent so I wouldn't get stuck at a table in a positive count with no cash. There was a brief respite of a win of a couple hundred bucks at the 4th place, then at the 5th I managed to lose another $2k or so.

Thought it was a good time to take a break. Peak to trough, I had lost approx $6,000. And it was all so fast, it didn't seem like there was really an end in sight. I pondered how much longer it would take to cripple my bankroll... and it seemed like I'd be there before dinnertime. However, my losses hadn't yet gotten me to a point where I had to decrease my bet spread, so I figured I'd keep on blundering along in my dumb way, and see what happened...

I played a bit of video poker (I had accumulated a lot of freeplay coupons), got lucky and won $500, then hit the tables again and recouped around $1k or so of the losses. Went to the final (6th) joint, dropped another $2k very quickly, but then in the span of about 15 minutes, manage to recoup all of it, plus change.

Net damage to the bankroll? About $3200. If we called my unit for the weekend $50, then it was about 65 units. In hindsight, it wasn't too bad, and it definitely could have been a lot worse. Too bad that it still represents a lot of hours of work to make up if I win exactly at EV.

The good news? No particular indication of heat or sweatiness anywhere.

Lessons learnt:
- I'm glad that, a while ago, I decided to stop increasing my max bet linearly with my bankroll. I don't think I would have been able to cope (emotionally) with the results if I was using a $400 max bet.
- Definitely need to bring more cash along if I'm going to be playing for more than like one hour. Guess it means I'll have to start walking around like a drug dealer.
- The idea of floating out a big bet as soon as you sit down at a table isn't that expensive, from an EV standpoint, but man, if you get hit by the ugly end of the variance stick, it can really throw a monkey wrench into things.

Favorite line of the weekend:
Old lady to me: "You're a good loser."
Me: "Oh, I'm an excellent loser."

 

[mdlbj]

Great advise!!

Index numbers on a piece of paper? I can't believe they let you do that.

Seriously though, make up some flashcards and you'll learn those in no time at all. It's not that hard. Why go in there with a crutch? Commit that easy stuff to memory and you can use all your brain cycles on other stuff like true count conversion.

BTW, I always liked dealers who told people the card totals when I was first learning. I didn't have to add the cards myself, I just worried about the count.

 

[Automatic Monkey]

...
- The idea of floating out a big bet as soon as you sit down at a table isn't that expensive, from an EV standpoint, but man, if you get hit by the ugly end of the variance stick, it can really throw a monkey wrench into things...

And as an expert on monkey wrenches and bad variance, I agree!

I haven't been playing much blackjack on the East Coast recently, opting instead for another game that the casinos don't even realize I can beat and wouldn't know how to tell if I was playing with an advantage if they did. The fun part is that everybody at the table has the attitude of a slot player; nobody claims to be an expert or gets upset about your play. The bad part is I stand out like a Clydesdale in a pack of Shar Peis in that crowd.

One night this week I had a phenomenal victory, clearing hundreds of units with an unfamiliar strategy and count that's still a work-in-progress. The next night I lost nearly all of it, stunningly bad variance. Walking out, cursing (not just using profanity, I mean really cursing, as in 'darn this place and all herein to heck') I totaled my results for the two days, and I was 50% over expectation. We go in every time expecting to win and don't appreciate the inevitable losing at all, it seems.

A problem with this business is reconciling the mathematical realities of the game with the limits of human perception and memory. I'm convinced it can't fully be done- nobody remembers the session they had 20,000 hands ago but it's equal in significance to the one you are playing now. Losing is depressing and winning can be overly confidence building; a green chipper who just had a great session might end up thinking he can now go drop a couple of hundred in slots "for cover," but he really can't afford that.

Now I'm conditioning myself to totally disregard results of my play. Maybe carrying a larger playing stake to the casino will help, to make that session's wins and losses seem less significant.

 

[EasyRhino]

Maybe carrying a larger playing stake to the casino will help

Course, if you're carrying it in a groin pouch, it may attract attention. Maybe not unwanted attention, but attention nontheless.

The good news when I was playing short-stacked was that I don't think I was "playing scared". Well, I probably was a little bit scared, but it wasn't affecting my play, I was still pushing out the bets when warranted. But I was "playing worried". I didn't want to have to walk away from a table because of no money when there were probably a good six hands of a super-high count left. And unfortunately, at these "chunky green" betting levels... that can be a lot of money.

Oh, and the "Whoe the hell really does this?" thought crossed my mind again while playing. This weekend, I was the biggest bettor at every table I sat at. Heck, even in Vegas, I was the biggest bettor at every table I sat at. I guess everyone who could consistently afford to bet over $100 per hand was hanging out in high limit areas, but that left me as the "crazy table whale," which is not a role to which I am particularly accustomed.

 

[21forme]

A few weeks sgo, I was at a $15-$1000 table and the guy sitting next to me was flat betting the table max (and getting killed, doing a lot of stupid things.) I was tempted to ask him why he wasn't in the high roller pit (6D vs. 8D) but kept my mouth shut. Surprisingly, the pit wasn't watching too closely. Guess they knew he was a goner after a quick glance.

 

[EasyRhino]

Ouch, part two.

Saturday was not good.

Spent a few hours playing a doubledeck game. Rules were fair, but penetration was a solid 75% (which by local standards is quite good). Table uncrowded, I think I got in at least an hour of heads-up play. And man, I just got killed. Lost $5k in about two hours. Definitely my personal record for the most I've lost, and the fastest I've lost it. (I think adjusted for bet level, I lost this much in Reno... but it took a lot longer)

There was really nothing remarkable about the manner, there were plenty of high counts, and low counts, and a little bit of wonging out, but mainly, I was just getting creamed. Now, I know, intellectually, that my realistic advantage of <1% is precarious in the face of variance, but it still hurts when you feel it.

As usual, I kept my discipline while I was playing. But all the while, I was thinking about the damage to the bankroll: Combined with previous week's loss, the BR dropped from its peak of >$40k to <$32k. I'm not ruined, but I feel like I can see ruin in the distance if I squint really hard. I figure I've got one more losing session before I cross below my "1% of BR" max bet threshold and need to adjust my game. And if I hit that point, then I'm probably going to end up evaluating what my goals are with the game in the first place... that's when the idea of just taking my BR and using it to buy taffy might seem a more appealing alternative than gambling with it.

I have a hiatus of at least a week coming up due to business trip. I'll probably use that time to raid the online gambling piggybank to mend part of the losses.

 

[Automatic Monkey]

Why are you playing games with an advantage of less than 1%? That's not good, you can get better than that in Atlantic City which is a lousy venue.

 

[EasyRhino]

a) I'm too much of a wuss to jack up the spread to levels that will get me booted.
b) I'm trying to comp-count, also.
c) Joints too small to table-hop very much.
d) Upon leaving one store, the next "close" one is about a 30 minute drive away.

Dropping a) and b) would lead to a different style of play, for sure.

 

[EasyRhino]

After a month hiatus, I got in some quality hours of playing over the last few days. Unfortunately, I didn't get in much in the way of quality winning over the last few days.

Since I was off a couple weeks, I did some quick practices to make sure I hadn't completely lost my skills, and they were the same. Also during the downtime, I did some basic sims against this type of game I've been playing the most, and the compubox spat out a 1% advantage and a 5% RoR, which was actually better than I expected for a fairly "lazy" strategy. But the sim didn't account for contraints on how quickly I would ramp/drop bets, or wonging, or my willingness to drop bets once I go below certain thresholds, so it's not perfect. Anyway, I digress.

Vast majority of the play was on DD games, generally alone or with 1 or 2 other people. I
I managed to lose another $2k. There were a few winning sessions interspersed in there, but mainly it was losing ones. Then there was the 6D shoe from hell, where the count got really high, stayed high, and I just got clobbered. With that loss, that means I've managed to lose $10k card counting over the last month. That's definitely some sort of personal milestone, but not a good one. It also would be a 25% bankroll haircut, except for the emptying of the online casino account, which repaired a little over half of that.

No particular signs of heat from anywhere, which was interesting. I guess losing is a good way to avoid obvious sweatiness from the pit.

Found a few dealers at one casino with usually poor penetration (50-60%) dealing better pen (70-75%), that was a pleasant surprise. On the flipside, after playing at one table for an hour or two, a dealer that had been inserting the cut card fairly deep shallowed it up quite a bit. Could have been a one-time fluke, but it served as a reminder that I had been at the table too long.

Another nice surprise was that I got lucky at video poker (working through freeplay coupons and a tiny bit of cover). Actually won about $1k. over two very short sessions. That was neat. Too bad the casino doesn't do hypergenerous machine play promos, or I could do some damange on 99.9% payout VP. Then again, VP gets crushingly boring if played for more than 30 minutes.

Just thought it would be a good idea to update. Except for the lack of time for play, and losing all that damn money, things have been going pretty well.

PS - what with the wildfires out here, I did take a few hundred from the bankroll and make a donation to the local Red Cross. I figured it was only right to use my evil powers for just a little bit of good.