Mandalay Bay playing conditions

[Wizard2be]

I have stayed at MB 3 times this year (last time being 2 weeks ago) and usually play at the tables just outside of the Eyecandy bar/lounge. The shoe games in this pit are usually min $25/50/100 and are Dealer Stay Soft 17. When I went to play there yesterday, ALL of the shoe games in this pit have changed to Dealer Hit Soft 17. I even ventured into the semi hi-limit area right beside it (the covered area, where the games are usually min $100) and to my surprise the games there have also been changed to Hit Soft 17. The only tables where the dealer Stays on soft 17 are now in the high limit room where min bet is $200. Wow. When I asked a dealer when and why they changed she said that they changed all of the tables about 1 week ago as the casino wanted "uniformity" throughout the BJ tables. Yeah right! She confirmed/understood though that this was a negative change for the player and acknowledged that skilled players will go elsewhere.

I usually stay at MGM/Bellagio and have only been trying out MB this year. I will now make the change back to MGM/Bellagio.

My play usually spreads 50-400. I don't want to spead 100-800 @ a Hit Soft 17 table.

Does anyone know if MGM Resorts International plans to make similar changes at their other prooperties such as Bellagio or MGM Grand?

Thanks

 

[FLASH1296]

I strongly suspect that now that the Mirage and Mandalay Bay
have bastardized their BJ tables, it is only a matter of (brief) time
before they go corporate with this f'ugly transmogrification.

 

[21forme]

Just one more reason LV will continue its downward spiral.

 

[FLASH1296]

It has gotten to the point where I no longer go to Las Vegas.

 

[aslan]

Just one more reason LV will continue its downward spiral.

First AC, now LV. What next, the casino owners in PA will get their games changed? I see a whole new crop of poker players in the making.

 

[StudiodeKadent]

NOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! [bloodcurdling scream]

That said, if MB notices a drop-off in blackjack play and more players complain about it, they are likely to switch at least some BJ tables back to S17.

I'd advise polite but strongly-worded emails to the casino manager combined with simply not playing.

There is at least some reason to hope (yes, yes, wishful thinking). Its possible that the MGM Casinos are simply trying to build "counter traps." If all their potential counters are funneled into Bellagio, Aria and the MGM Grand they'd be able to detect them more easily.

At least that's the theory; the smarter counters know all about Counter-Traps so the change to H17 won't kill them.

Look, the Atlantis in the Bahamas switched back from H17 to S17 recently (see: http://www.blackjackinfo.com/bb/showthread.php?t=21361&page=2) so this kind of change is hardly irreversible.

I'm a basic strategy $50 flat bettor with a reasonably juicy bankroll, so if worst comes to worst I SHOULD be able to convince a shift manager to get me an S17 liberal rules table (I've been able to convince them to let me bet $30 at a $50 min table when the $25 table was filled up on a previous visit), and if that doesn't work I might be able to convince the Cosmo to let me at an S17 table (they apparently don't have many table games players so they can be bargained with).

Now please excuse me whilst I crawl into the corner, curl up into the fetal position and hope beyond hope that they'll still be S17 tables for a green chip player when I'm in Vegas this September.

 

[zengrifter]

Does anyone know if MGM Resorts International plans to make similar changes at their other prooperties such as Bellagio or MGM Grand?

That is the general direction. zg

 

[pieinthesky]

Mirage s17?

Anyone know if the DD between the cage and the Beatles show theater is still s17?

 

[Caesar]

Scam City

"It has gotten to the point where I no longer go to Las Vegas." I couldn't agree more. I may never go back to Vegas.

 

[Caesar]

We need to educate the public about H17 the way we did about 6:5.

If the "public" had listened and stopped playing 6-5, it would have died off long ago.

 

[aslan]

If the "public" had listened and stopped playing 6-5, it would have died off long ago.

But no one listened, so why do you think they'll listen now?

The only flaws in other casino games are based on dealer performance, equipment malfunction, and special player skill sets, not rules. Why should the casinos allow one game to be beatable based on strategy and favorable rules?

If I were in charge I would say, "Screw blackjack! Make it like all the rest of our games, flat out unbeatable by any kind of system. We have enough to contend with between dealer and security personnel theft, dealer incompetency and equipment flaws. Far too much time is wasted on these pesky card counters who really do not pose much of a financial risk anyway. Let's put them behind us, and concentrate on the really big threats to our bottom line."

Just look at Caesar's. Is the absence of card counters hurting their bottom line? Hardly! They are the wave of the future. Ironclad games that will send Grosjean headlong into retirement (they wish).

 

[pieinthesky]

H17

The public HAS listened, to an extent - 6:5 has not taken over the blackjack world, and, it seems to me, has contracted (or at least not expanded too much) lately. There always will be suckers, and the casinos always will cater to them. The goal is not (though the desire is) to eliminate all H17 games, but to slow or halt their spread. I believe player resistance to bad games can do that - if not, why isn't every blackjack game everywhere 6:5, H17, CSM?

 

[StudiodeKadent]

The public HAS listened, to an extent - 6:5 has not taken over the blackjack world, and, it seems to me, has contracted (or at least not expanded too much) lately. There always will be suckers, and the casinos always will cater to them. The goal is not (though the desire is) to eliminate all H17 games, but to slow or halt their spread. I believe player resistance to bad games can do that - if not, why isn't every blackjack game everywhere 6:5, H17, CSM?

pieinthesky has a point.

If players simply didn't care about game rules, the casinos would have already made the rules far worse.

A point does need to be made; many casinos in many markets need to have rule changes approved by the regulators. However, we can't assume that regulators of gaming prioritize giving the player a good chance! Simple public choice theory; the regulators are more likely to want to maximize tax revenue first and foremost.

There are some reasons for optimism. Online gaming plus the increase in jurisdictions legalizing gaming means increased competition, which ceteris paribus always helps the consumer.

Yes, there are plenty of stupid gamblers, but in western markets there's a stark tendency for bankroll size to be correlated with player intelligence (again, this is a tendency). Gamblers that don't know much about the best bet in a casino will occasionally wager small amounts of money; they see 'risk' in terms of amount of money bet rather than house edge (hence they'd see a penny slot as less of a money-sucker than a blackjack table).

Look, as an economist I can see the necessity for H17 on lower limit (red chip) games some of the time (clearly though, some casinos can offer S17 at $15 or so). So obviously H17 isn't going to go away. But I do think pie is correct that a more informed player base will lower the spread of such games, and it isn't hard to get strategy charts off the internet.

p.s. pieinthesky, I sent you a PM. Hope you received it.

 

[aslan]

The public HAS listened, to an extent - 6:5 has not taken over the blackjack world, and, it seems to me, has contracted (or at least not expanded too much) lately. There always will be suckers, and the casinos always will cater to them. The goal is not (though the desire is) to eliminate all H17 games, but to slow or halt their spread. I believe player resistance to bad games can do that - if not, why isn't every blackjack game everywhere 6:5, H17, CSM?

Actually, I was stunned to see just how far 6:5 had gone on my last trip to Vegas. Now, they even have it in some shoe games. H17 is spreading BTW, not remaining stagnant. Witness the spread of H17 at the Borgata in AC, the last holdout of S17 games in AC except for some HL rooms. In truth, they don't really need to combine 6:5 with H17 to get the money... H17 will suffice. The pros who will waste their time beating such a game are few and far between-- Note the general boycott of Caesar's property games. As for CSMs, they are now standard fare at even the most liberal of strip casinos, and eventually will break down the public's aversion to these monstrosities. Probably, too, the royalties are too high, but they are experimenting with them at the lower levels where players haven't a clue about being robbed. "C'mon! Enjoy! Drink up! Play a little blackjack with the dealer in the polka dot bikini! It's all good!" :laugh::whip:

 

[21forme]

Don't forget the history of BJ. Prior to Thorpe, BJ was not a popular game. There was no proper BS, so house edge was probably on the order of 5%. Craps was the #1 table game, by far.

Once "Beat the Dealer" came out, it became a best seller, and people thought they had a chance to beat the game, so BJ flourished. If the casinos want to kill BJ completely, all they need to do is keep doing what they are doing now - making the rules worse and worse. It may work for Strip casinos with their "fleece the one-time player tourists" for a while, but it will bite them in the a** in the long-run, as they can't survive without repeat business. Many locals' casinos, such as Station, found this out the hard way when they introduced 6:5. Their customer base disappeared, then so did 6:5 after a short while.

 

[StudiodeKadent]

Don't forget the history of BJ. Prior to Thorpe, BJ was not a popular game. There was no proper BS, so house edge was probably on the order of 5%. Craps was the #1 table game, by far.

Once "Beat the Dealer" came out, it became a best seller, and people thought they had a chance to beat the game, so BJ flourished. If the casinos want to kill BJ completely, all they need to do is keep doing what they are doing now - making the rules worse and worse. It may work for Strip casinos with their "fleece the one-time player tourists" for a while, but it will bite them in the a** in the long-run, as they can't survive without repeat business. Many locals' casinos, such as Station, found this out the hard way when they introduced 6:5. Their customer base disappeared, then so did 6:5 after a short while.

Hate to play Devil's Advocate, but most Strip casinos are dependent on tourism and 'casual gamblers' (who risk small amounts of money on penny slots and carny games and low-limit tables; they think in terms of total amount staked rather than expected value).

Local's markets are indeed more shrewd. Plus, smart travellers and premium players will always be demanding clients (perhaps we could say the 'standard deviation' of (gaming intelligence + bankroll) is higher on the Strip than in Local's markets)

 

[aslan]

Don't forget the history of BJ. Prior to Thorpe, BJ was not a popular game. There was no proper BS, so house edge was probably on the order of 5%. Craps was the #1 table game, by far.

Once "Beat the Dealer" came out, it became a best seller, and people thought they had a chance to beat the game, so BJ flourished. If the casinos want to kill BJ completely, all they need to do is keep doing what they are doing now - making the rules worse and worse. It may work for Strip casinos with their "fleece the one-time player tourists" for a while, but it will bite them in the a** in the long-run, as they can't survive without repeat business. Many locals' casinos, such as Station, found this out the hard way when they introduced 6:5. Their customer base disappeared, then so did 6:5 after a short while.

We are the perpetrator. They are the police, slowly circling around us, each hesitant to jump us until the rest are ready to make their move, slowly circling, waiting, waiting, for the proper moment, then ka-bang, all at once, wrestling us to the ground and handcuffing us behind our backs. That is the scene. The police are the several large gambling houses-- MGM Resorts, Caesar's, Station's, Boyd, Sands, etc. They all want the same thing-- to put APs out of commission. Even if BJ returns to its former diminished status with craps becoming the number one game, it matters little. What is lost in BJ revenues will be recovered in increased craps, slots, and other game revenues. After all, isn't the casino the place where people go to "only lose $500 and no more?" It's not a matter of blackjack sales, it's a matter of gambling in general. Even today people are telling me that baccarat is the best game because it has no house advantage (I didn't say it, that's what they tell me), craps has the best odds in the casino, roulette is best because of the odds, 3 card poker has the best payback, blackjack is too much up and down, etc. Please stop trying to confuse the ploppies with the facts! It's hard enough for them as it is!

 

[aslan]

Besides, the accountants are taking over! They will show us how to improve the bottom line! Not.

PS-- As always, I hope you're right and I'm wrong.

 

[pieinthesky]

S17

There are a few rays of hope. For instance, PA recently refused an industry request to allow H17. I hear the stores there are doing well and taking a lot of customers from AC. Maybe that will make a difference.

That said, I agree with Aslan and the others that smart customers (let alone APs) are not who the casinos want to attract and satisfy; however, the interest of the ploppies has always been aligned with the APs to the extent that ploppies know that BJ CAN be beat; they just mistakenly believe they can beat it, which has made BJ the most profitable table game. To the extent that even ploppies believe the fix is in, they may abandon BJ for other games.

 

[blackjackomaha]

Only one S17 game left in my area Few years ago, every store had at LEAST one.

On the bright side, every CSM is gone and pen, for the most part, is good enough to occasionally put up with H17.