Messing With the Flow

[ThunderWalk]

I'm looking for logic (understanding) as well as a way to respond to ploppies.

I often read in this forum how non-APs complain that hitting or not hitting according to BS, or playing two hands, is "messing up the flow of the cards" and causing the uninformed to lose a hand. These tales are usually followed by criticism of "ploppy thinking," and then group laughter by card counters... but there's no real explanation of the reasoning behind it.

Conceivably, the play at third base changes the next card available to the dealer, but everyone's play around the table influences the next card dealt in turn to the next player.

So I'm wondering:

What's the logical scientific explanation of why AP behavior doesn't change the outcome, and what sort of reply might satisfy a disgruntled player without insulting them, or just pissing them off?

 

[QFIT]

The result of every wager you will ever make depends upon the flightpath of a butterfly in Africa.

 

[Claza]

I realize that nobody here subscribes to the "Flow of Cards" theory, and neither do I.

I'm curious though about the logic a "Flow of Cards" believer uses. Could anybody post any links to threads or websites where people defend this practice?

Is it like a Karma, positive vs. negative energy, or maybe something like a Feng Shui thing?

 

[blackchipjim]

flow of cards?

Hey Claza, there have been numerous threads dealing with the people that you described. The karma at the table and people at the table make this such a team sport. I use a prop such a lucky rabbit''s foot just to show everybody where I'm coming from. The best camo for a card counter is to really act off the wall so you appear to be just as half baked as the rest of the people. I take on a different persona in the casinos then normal. Act about as wierd as the others at the table and no one will mess with you,and if they do act even wierder. I like to hum a tune and rock back and forth when some idiot gets on my case about standing or taking the dealers cards. You can also try rolling your eyes around and pretend to be preoccupied with something in your pocket.... blackchipjim

 

[Bojack1]

Are you ready for this? There actually can be a certain "flow" of cards. Sometimes in every pound of ploppy voodoo there is an ounce of truth. Its not based on karma or anything like that, its more based on non random shuffleing. In reality for a dealer to get a truly random shuffle after every shoe they would have to wash the cards before shuffling. Or at the very least shuffle many more times than twice. I will not go as far as to say the current shuffle styles lead to clumping, its more like patterns. Most dealers do not perform perfect riffles and drop anywhere from 2 to 5 cards at a time while shuffling. Some sloppy dealers drop even more. This leads to certain patterns repeating themselves from one shoe to the next. The problem with the ploppy theory is that they don't really see it for what it is. But because there are a limited amount of scenarios that can be played out from shoe to shoe, when the same thing happens good or bad, they get a case of deja vu and think that the cards are miraculously falling for or against them. My point is this, there are a pattern of cards that can be developed. Thats true or shuffletracking could not exist. If I am able to cut 2 decks that are rich in high cards into play in 1 shoe, and it works out well to where I can do it on the next shoe, that would constitute a certain "flow" of cards. If I can knowingly do it than it stands to reason that someone could unknowingly or accidentally do it. As for messing up the flow, its not the same reasoning that a ploppy might have, but I know if I have set up a great shuffletrack I'm not so thrilled if someone sits down and eats up some of the the cards I have set up for myself, thus interrupting the sacred "flow" of the cards.

 

[ScottH]

I'm looking for logic (understanding) as well as a way to respond to ploppies.

I often read in this forum how non-APs complain that hitting or not hitting according to BS, or playing two hands, is "messing up the flow of the cards" and causing the uninformed to lose a hand. These tales are usually followed by criticism of "ploppy thinking," and then group laughter by card counters... but there's no real explanation of the reasoning behind it.

Conceivably, the play at third base changes the next card available to the dealer, but everyone's play around the table influences the next card dealt in turn to the next player.

So I'm wondering:

What's the logical scientific explanation of why AP behavior doesn't change the outcome, and what sort of reply might satisfy a disgruntled player without insulting them, or just pissing them off?

Don't look for a way to repsond to it, be the one making comments about the flow of the cards! If you are an AP you WANT to look like a ploppy. So use the lines that the ploppies use, don't correct them.

 

[sagefr0g]

......

So I'm wondering:

What's the logical scientific explanation of why AP behavior doesn't change the outcome, and what sort of reply might satisfy a disgruntled player without insulting them, or just pissing them off?

wonging in at a advantageous count
wonging out at a disadvatageous count
going to multiple hands on an advantageous count

the above actions do have a negative affect on your table mates.
wonging in you eat their good cards (hopefully)
wonging out they eat the lousey cards.
going to multiple hands you( hopefully) eat more good cards.

 

[eps6724]

The result of every wager you will ever make depends upon the flightpath of a butterfly in Africa.

Would that be a North African butterfly, or South African? I'd hate to find I went to all the trouble to learn counting just to find out my fauna is wrong!

 

[Brutus]

I'm looking for logic (understanding) as well as a way to respond to ploppies.

when in Rome...

I play against the house, but play another game with nuts at the table.

try talking to yourself.

use terminology from another game. like "Yahtzee!" for a blackjack or double. "Pay the line" when dealer loses and everyone else wins.

assorted gibberish works too.
"what goes up must come down" is always good especially when the pit is nearby.
or one the pit loves "the house always wins".(shaking head)

better the ploppies think i am the one nuttier than a fruitcake.

 

[Terredar]

Conceivably, the play at third base changes the next card available to the dealer, but everyone's play around the table influences the next card dealt in turn to

Is it true an idiot at third base will cause the other players to lose too?

No. This is just a myth. He is just as likely to help you as hurt you. On average it makes no difference. If anyone rebukes you for hitting a stiff hand at third base tell them you'll keep doing so when the odds favor it and if they don't like it they can find another table.

from http://wizardofodds.com/askthewizard/blackjack-faq.html

 

[ihate17]

Many good responses

I'm looking for logic (understanding) as well as a way to respond to ploppies.

I often read in this forum how non-APs complain that hitting or not hitting according to BS, or playing two hands, is "messing up the flow of the cards" and causing the uninformed to lose a hand. These tales are usually followed by criticism of "ploppy thinking," and then group laughter by card counters... but there's no real explanation of the reasoning behind it.

Conceivably, the play at third base changes the next card available to the dealer, but everyone's play around the table influences the next card dealt in turn to the next player.

So I'm wondering:

What's the logical scientific explanation of why AP behavior doesn't change the outcome, and what sort of reply might satisfy a disgruntled player without insulting them, or just pissing them off?

It is a hard job and perhaps one you do not want to do, if your plan is to satisfy a disgruntled player with logic. Better to lie and say you thought the flow needed changing or some other illogical explaination. Trying to give him a math lesson will insult him and notify the house perhaps that you are more than you want to appear to be. The belief in the flow is like religion or superstition and logic will not work. Use it when you can to your benifit. The count rises and everyone is losing, it is the proper time to go to two hands and you do so with an annoucement that you need to change the flow. In this case if it works you might be a hero and if it does not, at least you tried. Also remember you are dealing with selective memory. People tend to forget or not see it when your play results in their winning but it sticks in their minds when it results in a loss. Little story here: Not long ago I split 9,9 at third base vs a dealer 5. I land up winning both hands but the dealer who had 15 makes a 17 and wipes the rest of the table who had stayed on stiffs. Guy at first base is calling me a greedy so and so, the dealer would have busted etc etc etc. Next hand he gets a blackjack and I say, "your welcome", and it just went right over his head.

Also, remember that your playing basic strategy will also anger other players when it does not work out. Hit your 12 vs dealer 2 and get a 10 and the next card, the dealers card is a 9 when he has 12 and they will be upset. Double your soft 18 vs dealer 6 and you hit a 10, dealer turns 16 and makes a hand and you will hear it. Basic or not, especially at third base but other positions also, if you play perfectly but do not know both the dealers hole card and the exact order of the cards yet to be dealt, you will at times get the wrath of players.

It simply comes down to, how you play does not matter. People can not blame themselves for their misfortune and they tend not to want to blame something they can not speak too like their luck, so they blame some other player.
Best to ignore them or sometimes admit your "poor play" and call yourself an idiot.

ihate17

 

[NDN21]

I'm curious though about the logic a "Flow of Cards" believer uses. Could anybody post any links to threads or websites where people defend this practice?QUOTE]

I doubt if there are sites where people defend this "flow of cards" thing because people who complain about the flow of cards being upset are not likely to go to the trouble of researching the game.

And there isn't anything scientific or backed by evidence to defend with the flow of cards. In order to take advantage of the flow of cards I believe a player would have to know the flow of cards in advance which of course is not possible.

Here's a suggestion to deal with the "flow of cards" complainers. The next time a player complains in this manner just look at them and say "well you should have said so, silly, I would have listened to you". Then if they still haven't gotten the message and they are actually trying to tell you to hit or stand, ask them "are you guaranting a win for me?", "are you gonna reimburse me if I lose?". That should be enough to quiet them or make them leave.

The best thing to do is just leave them alone though.

 

[CaseyCat]

when in Rome...


use terminology from another game. like "Yahtzee!" for a blackjack or double. "Pay the line" when dealer loses and everyone else wins.
.

Naaa .. you yell SCAT when you get blackjack!

SCAT is a fun game to play with a bunch of people and a lot of beer. Sort of like BJ abd Rummy with winner takes all.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thirty-one_(game)

 

[ChefJJ]

Yeah, I don't know if anyone has noticed, but gamblers are pretty superstitious people. Even as a counter, I gotta admit that wanting to have luck on my side is not a bad thing either...I look at luck as the short-term swings of probability.

When it comes to people being pissy with another at the table, you rarely see someone get mad at the 3rd baseman with 13 against 4 who pulled the dealer's 6, do you? It's only when he takes the bust card. So, is it a wash? Probably...I doubt a scientific study could be done. But does a bad play screw up the flow and does a good move correct the flow? Or vice versa? If you get too wrapped up in that at the table, where does your concentration on counting, betting, play deviation, and deception to the pit go?

The way I look at it, if someone is screwing up "the flow" so bad that it is interrupting my concentration or causing me to have a bad time, I get up. If someone sees me as screwing things up because I went against the grain on a strategy deviation, they have that option too. But if they want to make it "miserable" on me, I'm not going anywhere.

 

[ihate17]

A scientific study has been done

Yeah, I don't know if anyone has noticed, but gamblers are pretty superstitious people. Even as a counter, I gotta admit that wanting to have luck on my side is not a bad thing either...I look at luck as the short-term swings of probability.

When it comes to people being pissy with another at the table, you rarely see someone get mad at the 3rd baseman with 13 against 4 who pulled the dealer's 6, do you? It's only when he takes the bust card. So, is it a wash? Probably...I doubt a scientific study could be done. But does a bad play screw up the flow and does a good move correct the flow? Or vice versa? If you get too wrapped up in that at the table, where does your concentration on counting, betting, play deviation, and deception to the pit go?

The way I look at it, if someone is screwing up "the flow" so bad that it is interrupting my concentration or causing me to have a bad time, I get up. If someone sees me as screwing things up because I went against the grain on a strategy deviation, they have that option too. But if they want to make it "miserable" on me, I'm not going anywhere.

Two results: The flow does not exist
In the long run, the player who makes poor plays hurts only himself.

ihate17 The Antiflow

 

[ScottH]

Two results: The flow does not exist
In the long run, the player who makes poor plays hurts only himself.

ihate17 The Antiflow

"The sacred flow" does not lend itself well to scientific studies. "You just gotta believe!"

 

[CaseyCat]

May the flow be with you ...

"The sacred flow" does not lend itself well to scientific studies. "You just gotta believe!"

Like "The Force"?

 

[EasyRhino]

I take a more holistic approach. There is a flow. Unfortunately, I don't know what it is, the ploppy doesn't know what it is... only bojack knows what it is. So, since you can't predict it, fuck it.

There is only one ocassion when a ploppy making ploppy plays annoyws me, and that's when the count is positive and they keep taking cards when they shouldn't. However, they don't know any better, so I can't get all up in their grill about it.

 

[Sonny]

So, since you can't predict it, fuck it.

That's a good philosophy for women as well. :toast:

-Sonny-

 

[bj bob]

"Sanctissimum fletum cartarum"

....."The most sacred flow of cards"....I was rudely reminded that I had disrupted it by hitting 16 V. 10(RC=-4, but only I knew that). I said I was sorry and asked the idiot if it would be OK to let me ask the dealer to bless the next deck before she starts to deal. That pretty much shut up the "faithful" for the rest of the session. After coloring up with a nice tidy profit for the hour, I left by saying "The only flow I'm concerned with is the "flow" of chips in my direction."