Nasty nasty nasty holecarders

[Automatic Monkey]

I was playing a flashing dealer recently and these two guys tried to harass me out of my seat. What a bunch of effing jerkholes. Insulted me and talked to me about counting. If I see them again on a game I'm going to do unto them. :flame:

It was a mediocre session and the dealer corrected herself after about an hour.

 

[NightStalker]

lol

lol and lol

 

[johndoe]

Glad you were able to keep your seat (and cool!)

I always wondered what the right etiquette is for related situations. Obviously I'd never be bullied out of a seat, and can handle the pricks, but would I share if they were polite? What if I were the one approaching the table with a friendly or unfriendly HC'er?

I've only faced this once before, when the flash was so blatant that most of the table could see it, so I had no problem sharing when others arrived - I figured better them than civilians with big mouths. Even moved my seat a bit to help, and conferred about partial info. Nice fellas.

 

[Sonny]

If I see them again on a game I'm going to do unto them. :flame:

Did they know that you were holecarding? If not, I wouldn't bring any attention to yourself by messing with them. They are much more valuable to you if they don't know who you are. It is also much safer to put them out of business silently instead of using the suicide bomber approach. Something to think about anyway.

-Sonny-

 

[sagefr0g]

it's a wild casinodom out there

I was playing a flashing dealer recently and these two guys tried to harass me out of my seat. What a bunch of effing jerkholes. Insulted me and talked to me about counting. If I see them again on a game I'm going to do unto them. :flame:

It was a mediocre session and the dealer corrected herself after about an hour.

it ain't only hc'ers:
http://www.blackjackinfo.com/bb/showthread.php?t=18951
:violin: try some negative capability

 

[Sucker]

There seems to be more & more of these newer players coming up that have no respect whatsover for other players. I've run into more of these people in the last couple of years than I would like to have. I've even had some of these fools actually call the pit & have dealers corrected! (Talk about cutting of your nose to spite your face!)This sort of thing almost NEVER happened 20 years ago.

When I happen upon another team I will ALWAYS show them respect by leaving and coming back the following day. I will not even hang around and WATCH, as I consider that to be unethical also. I expect the same treatment by others; unfortunately it doesn't always work that way. The actions of these jackasses WAY too often only results in the game being burned out and NO ONE making any money.

P.S. If you P.M. me with their description there is a very good chance that I can ID these guys for you, or at least I can be on the lookout in case they pull something at MY table. (If you decide not to P.M. me for one reason or another; that's perfectly fine also).

 

[sagefr0g]

There seems to be more & more of these newer players coming up that have no respect whatsover for other players. I've run into more of these people in the last couple of years than I would like to have. I've even had some of these fools actually call the pit & have dealers corrected! (Talk about cutting of your nose to spite your face!)This sort of thing almost NEVER happened 20 years ago.

When I happen upon another team I will ALWAYS show them respect by leaving and coming back the following day. I will not even hang around and WATCH, as I consider that to be unethical also. I expect the same treatment by others; unfortunately it doesn't always work that way. The actions of these jackasses WAY too often only results in the game being burned out and NO ONE making any money.

....

i can sympathize with the sentiment but not the practicality.
i mean heck if the slopping trough is full you can't just expect the hogs to leave, lol.
i think i'm gonna find some way to stick my snout in there as well, lol....
besides knocking something else down while they are gorging, sorta thing.
but respect, yes, that's definitely in order and burning down a game should be way down at the bottom of anyone's priority list.
whatever, in my little corner of the wild casinodom this stuff is one of the most difficult issues to contend with.
sometimes it's just a plain and simple matter of your screwed, no other reasonable way around it, far as i know.
edit: tell you what it's sorta like...
where when we were infants, it was all us, the universe revolved around us then as we aged, we came to the some what annoying but perhaps amusing realization that there were other centers of the universe floating about as well, lol.

 

[aslan]

I was playing a flashing dealer recently and these two guys tried to harass me out of my seat. What a bunch of effing jerkholes. Insulted me and talked to me about counting. If I see them again on a game I'm going to do unto them. :flame:

It was a mediocre session and the dealer corrected herself after about an hour.

So, do you mean they knew you were a counter and they were trying to put some heat on you to force you to comply?

 

[Syph]

Generally speaking, an asshole is an asshole whether he's a ploppy, counter or holecarder, and sometimes there's an urge to drive him one right between the eyes.

(with apologies to Tiger Williams)

I had a situation the other night where I figured I'd follow my own advice. Partly out of nostalgia, and partly to see if its still current. Times change, and we sometimes forget that.

A ploppy had been harassing others at the table for surrendering. I surrendered.

Ploppy: "Way to go. You just pushed the cards forward. I don't know how to play my hand."
Syph: "Shut the fuck up."
Ploppy: "blah blah blah"
Syph: "Shut the fuck up."
Ploppy: "blah blah blah"
Syph: "Shut the fuck up."

He then repeated himself, so I repeated myself. It actually went on for about six cycles. I think another ploppy tried to interject and keep the peace. Whatever.

The pit boss was called over.

The original ploppy starts complaining that I was being abusive. I tell him to shut the fuck up.

Pit Boss: "Please sir, do not speak in that manner to the other players."
Syph: Tell him to play his own hand, or I will tell him to shut the fuck up."
Pit Boss: "Please sir, play your own hand."

Pit Boss left, I walked over to the ploppy. Leaned into his ear and asked him a question:

Syph: "Did you learn anything?"
Ploppy: "No..."
Syph: "When I'm in a hand, you shut the fuck up."

He left shortly thereafter.

***

Did I get myself banned? Was unwanted suspicion thrown my way? Was I too memorable? Was I doing everything an advantage player shouldn't?

Probably.

Here was the fallout:

Dealer: "Man, I'm glad you said what you did. That guy is always telling people how to play. Thanks."

Later at another table:

Player: "I couldn't stand that guy, thanks for telling him to fuck off."
Some Cougar: "Would you join me for a smoke?"

***

The advice is still current. In fact, I would extend it to other areas in life, if you feel so inclined. Someone gets in your face, simply tell them to fuck off until they are gone. And it doesn't matter who.

The world loves a big dick.

JMHO,
Syph

 

[bigplayer]

Generally speaking, an asshole is an asshole whether he's a ploppy, counter or holecarder, and sometimes there's an urge to drive him one right between the eyes.

(with apologies to Tiger Williams)

I had a situation the other night where I figured I'd follow my own advice. Partly out of nostalgia, and partly to see if its still current. Times change, and we sometimes forget that.

A ploppy had been harassing others at the table for surrendering. I surrendered.

Ploppy: "Way to go. You just pushed the cards forward. I don't know how to play my hand."
Syph: "Shut the fuck up."
Ploppy: "blah blah blah"
Syph: "Shut the fuck up."
Ploppy: "blah blah blah"
Syph: "Shut the fuck up."

He then repeated himself, so I repeated myself. It actually went on for about six cycles. I think another ploppy tried to interject and keep the peace. Whatever.

The pit boss was called over.

The original ploppy starts complaining that I was being abusive. I tell him to shut the fuck up.

Pit Boss: "Please sir, do not speak in that manner to the other players."
Syph: Tell him to play his own hand, or I will tell him to shut the fuck up."
Pit Boss: "Please sir, play your own hand."

Pit Boss left, I walked over to the ploppy. Leaned into his ear and asked him a question:

Syph: "Did you learn anything?"
Ploppy: "No..."
Syph: "When I'm in a hand, you shut the fuck up."

He left shortly thereafter.

***

Did I get myself banned? Was unwanted suspicion thrown my way? Was I too memorable? Was I doing everything an advantage player shouldn't?

Probably.

Here was the fallout:

Dealer: "Man, I'm glad you said what you did. That guy is always telling people how to play. Thanks."

Later at another table:

Player: "I couldn't stand that guy, thanks for telling him to fuck off."
Some Cougar: "Would you join me for a smoke?"

***

The advice is still current. In fact, I would extend it to other areas in life, if you feel so inclined. Someone gets in your face, simply tell them to fuck off until they are gone. And it doesn't matter who.

The world loves a big dick.

JMHO,
Syph

Be careful with that. In Chicago, Detroit, or South Philly that might get you killed.

 

[aslan]

Generally speaking, an asshole is an asshole whether he's a ploppy, counter or holecarder, and sometimes there's an urge to drive him one right between the eyes.

(with apologies to Tiger Williams)

I had a situation the other night where I figured I'd follow my own advice. Partly out of nostalgia, and partly to see if its still current. Times change, and we sometimes forget that.

A ploppy had been harassing others at the table for surrendering. I surrendered.

Ploppy: "Way to go. You just pushed the cards forward. I don't know how to play my hand."
Syph: "Shut the fuck up."
Ploppy: "blah blah blah"
Syph: "Shut the fuck up."
Ploppy: "blah blah blah"
Syph: "Shut the fuck up."

He then repeated himself, so I repeated myself. It actually went on for about six cycles. I think another ploppy tried to interject and keep the peace. Whatever.

The pit boss was called over.

The original ploppy starts complaining that I was being abusive. I tell him to shut the fuck up.

Pit Boss: "Please sir, do not speak in that manner to the other players."
Syph: Tell him to play his own hand, or I will tell him to shut the fuck up."
Pit Boss: "Please sir, play your own hand."

Pit Boss left, I walked over to the ploppy. Leaned into his ear and asked him a question:

Syph: "Did you learn anything?"
Ploppy: "No..."
Syph: "When I'm in a hand, you shut the fuck up."

He left shortly thereafter.

***

Did I get myself banned? Was unwanted suspicion thrown my way? Was I too memorable? Was I doing everything an advantage player shouldn't?

Probably.

Here was the fallout:

Dealer: "Man, I'm glad you said what you did. That guy is always telling people how to play. Thanks."

Later at another table:

Player: "I couldn't stand that guy, thanks for telling him to fuck off."
Some Cougar: "Would you join me for a smoke?"

***

The advice is still current. In fact, I would extend it to other areas in life, if you feel so inclined. Someone gets in your face, simply tell them to fuck off until they are gone. And it doesn't matter who.

The world loves a big dick.

JMHO,
Syph

I generally try to be Mr. Nice Guy, but when someone really gets under my skin, I tell them, "Shut the #### up!":flame: I'm not saying it's the right thing to do. I wish I had more cool about me. But it is effective.:cool2: And it does drain that high level of pent up emotion:flame: that this A-hole:whip:is provoking. I still look for more patience, and I do know that words sometimes lead to fists:eyepatch:, but if it gets under my skin enough, in that state, I:grin: don't give a rat's #ss.

PS--Patience is the better choice. You never know when something can go beyond harsh words and fistfights.

 

[aslan]

Be careful with that. In Chicago, Detroit, or South Philly that might get you killed.

This is unfortunately true. Sparing you the stories, when you're dealing with the public, you never know when you are dealing with someone who is connected.

 

[pit15]

There seems to be more & more of these newer players coming up that have no respect whatsover for other players. I've run into more of these people in the last couple of years than I would like to have. I've even had some of these fools actually call the pit & have dealers corrected! (Talk about cutting of your nose to spite your face!)This sort of thing almost NEVER happened 20 years ago.

When I happen upon another team I will ALWAYS show them respect by leaving and coming back the following day. I will not even hang around and WATCH, as I consider that to be unethical also. I expect the same treatment by others; unfortunately it doesn't always work that way. The actions of these jackasses WAY too often only results in the game being burned out and NO ONE making any money.

P.S. If you P.M. me with their description there is a very good chance that I can ID these guys for you, or at least I can be on the lookout in case they pull something at MY table. (If you decide not to P.M. me for one reason or another; that's perfectly fine also).

Anyone who calls surveillance on another legal advantage player is just ****ed up, and should have their ass kicked.

I'll generally watch long enough to confirm the play, then move on.

The ONLY time I would seriously consider notifying the casino of something is if card benders (people doing something ILLEGAL) came to my table and started doing their thing. I would first tell them flat out to quit bending the cards (something I tell civilians too since f-ed up cards delays the game). If they're really dense enough to continue at that table then they deserve whatever they get. I, for one, don't want to get in trouble for their ****, and I don't really have any respect for cheaters

With any legit AP, it's pretty simple. If they don't respect my games, I won't respect theirs, and will jump in if I feel like it (and this does NOT mean for the purpose of drawing heat onto their game, if I jump on it's purely to make myself $. Getting somebody backed off isn't +EV for me, it's definitely -EV since the game will be killed). I won't go beyond that. I'm there to make money, not play stupid childish games with other APs.

 

[QFIT]

Anyone who calls surveillance on another legal advantage player is just ****ed up

And hole-carders have done exactly this in California. But IMO, this is a part of their constant insistence on forums that card-counters are NOT "real" APs. In their minds, it absolves them of guilt.

 

[KimLee]

have done exactly this

I heard about a counter who was barred by floor manager, and then saw this floor manager counting on vacation. After a few anonymous phone calls the floor manager was barred and thrown out of his room. Karma.

 

[Jack_Black]

I heard about a counter who was barred by floor manager, and then saw this floor manager counting on vacation. After a few anonymous phone calls the floor manager was barred and thrown out of his room. Karma.

was it Bill zender? He wrote about how he was shuffle tracking at a strip resort only to get thrown out by the casino manager. Then a few years later when he ran the Aladdin, he saw the same manager in his casino HCing. Payback sure is a BEACH!

 

[Automatic Monkey]

Be careful with that. In Chicago, Detroit, or South Philly that might get you killed.

Or anywhere. When you meet someone in a casino you have no idea who that person is or what their problem is. You could be picking a fight with someone who is ready to check out and take someone with him. The guy who shot the PC at Taj Mahal was hanging out at the Showboat the night I was there. He was surely within 10 feet of me and armed and crazy.

There is a difference between assertive and aggressive and while assertiveness is always good, I'd recommend not being aggressive with any person from the time you leave home on an AP trip to the time you return.

 

[Automatic Monkey]

And hole-carders have done exactly this in California. But IMO, this is a part of their constant insistence on forums that card-counters are NOT "real" APs. In their minds, it absolves them of guilt.

I'd scorch their earth.

Not real AP's? Any experienced CC knows what to do with hole card information. But I wonder how many HC's can successfully count.

 

[pit15]

99.9% of "counters" are not real APs, they're losing players who give their money away to the casino.

The 1 in a 1000 who can successfully do it are.

And absolves hole carders of guilt?

What guilt? You're not doing anything illegal hole carding. It's the casino being stupid and lazy.

If I ran a casino you wouldn't be finding hole card games, and if you did it wouldn't be lasting long. Hell, I'd set up a trap game to screw with hole carders.

If a casino paid me enough I would make sure no advantage play took place in their house (WITHOUT stupid cut your nose off to spite your face type procedures). But I can make more money beating their games so I'll keep doing that.

 

[aslan]

99.9% of "counters" are not real APs...

At first blush that seems to define a real AP counter as the 1/10 of 1% that are merely lucky. I'll have to ponder it further.

Would you mind elaborating on how the 1/10 of 1% manage to win so consistently? And do they also avoid those wide swings of negative variance so prevalent among most counters? Maybe you can do aspiring young counters a real service by explaining what they must do to enter the elite ranks of the 1/10 of 1%, or at least give them a hint.