Need some help for team play

[SD Padres]

First off a little about me. I have been playing semi-pro since 1986 off and on so I'm not a new comer to the game. However, I have avoided team play for many reasons up until now. The main and obvious reason is trust issues with other members. My son is now 22 and has taken a serious interest in the game. I have taught him what I know and he is currently learning the KO count which I switched to a few years ago. We are both interested in implementing team play together and would like suggestions on how best to do this. Let me say up front that we don't look alike at first glance so I'm too worried about the pit catching on there. He is about 6'1" and I'm only 5'9 so maybe I should have a chat with the milkman. :laugh: Anyway, my idea was to play DD and flat bet quarters and have him spread as much as he could get away with....hopefully 1-8. The reason I prefer DD for this idea is that the count jumps all over the place pretty quickly and he would look like an average ploppy. Where as in 6-8 deck games the count can stay steady for awhile and it takes so damn long for the count to get decent. Not always, but it tends to work that way usually. I like the idea of him looking like your average joe with his bets jumping around. I even thought he could play drunk and have a drink in front of him and such. Sorry for the long post but my question is what betting ramps based on count using KO-P would you guys suggest. I came up with this but I'm nervous it may be too aggresive:

Count: 0-2 1 unit
Count: 3-4 2 units
Count: 5-6 4 units
Count: 7-8 6 units
Count: +9 > 8 units

Do these counts justify this betting pattern? I know when I'm playing alone I only spread 1-4 and play somewhat conservative. I am looking at no longer than 45-60 minutes max at one store. Also what is the best way to signal hands? He knows basic strategy very well. Is it best to signal count and let him make playing decisions or signal how to play each hand? I think I prefer the latter for the simple reason he's not staring at cards. He can look around room and not even pay attention to what's going on until his turn to play. And it would it be better to use reKO and just signal when count is +2 and then he could use indices as needed but use basic at count less than +2???
We have been both playing 6D lately and we'll signal each other to join game when count gets really juicy but I'd like to move to DD and sit at same table. Sorry for the long post but any suggestions would be appreciated. :grin:

 

[moo321]

Boy, I'd run a computer simulation using that betting spread against the game you're anticipating. That would tell you approximate win per hour, variance, etc.

 

[jack.jackson]

Free tip

When the count gets somewhat negative, at times. Drop the count, and start telling your favorite jokes. This can definetily throw the pitdogs off the scent.

 

[Kasi]

:

I don't know - sounds like your son only knows BS? Indices too, not sure?

Will the bankroll you play to change in any way?

Anyway, he's 22 and I'd lean to teaching him to count and play the same game you have been playing for 20 years, apparently successfully, at different tables doubling your hourly EV. Not that hard - he can pick it up in very little time - what's the hurry? If he's serious he has to take that next step at some time anyway.

Both of you playing at the same table brings up alot of co-variance issues and be very careful doing that. Sim time for sure. Both of you making the same waiting min-bets can definitely effect roll compared to just you making that same min waiting bet.

Also, if his bet increases correlate to the count, no matter how much he stares away or how drunk he acts, they will likely catch on eventually. If that's what you want to do, consider some form of alternately increasing bets so it's not so obvious but avg bet remains the same in high counts.

 

[Canceler]

C'mon, guys...

...I'm nervous it may be too aggresive:

Count: 0-2 1 unit
Count: 3-4 2 units
Count: 5-6 4 units
Count: 7-8 6 units
Count: +9 > 8 units

Am I the only one that thinks that, far from being too aggressive, this ramp is not nearly aggressive enough?

 

[rukus]

I came up with this but I'm nervous it may be too aggresive:

Count: 0-2 1 unit
Count: 3-4 2 units
Count: 5-6 4 units
Count: 7-8 6 units
Count: +9 > 8 units

Do these counts justify this betting pattern? .....
Also what is the best way to signal hands? .....
We have been both playing 6D lately and we'll signal each other to join game when count gets really juicy but I'd like to move to DD and sit at same table. Sorry for the long post but any suggestions would be appreciated. :grin:

agreed - if you both sit at the table and you are just flat betting, this ramp is not aggressive enough. now if you are both spreading and using a joint BR, then maybe this is good for each of you to use simoultaneously - but i think THAT ramp would be too aggressive for both of you to spread with at the same time at the same table, besides the obvious heat concerns of syncronized betting (new olympic sport anyone?)

if you are just playing min bet and he is the one spreading, i would probably use the following ramp for a level-1 count (please remember i dont know your counting system, game rules, BR, etc, and someone else feel free to chime in since i DON'T use level-1 counts myself):

Count: 0 1 unit
Count: 1 2 units
Count: 2-3 4 units
Count: 4-5 6 units
Count: +6 > 8 units

or have him play 2 hands instead of 1:
Count: 0 1x1 unit
Count: 1 1x2 units
Count: 2-3 2x3 units
Count: 4-5 2x4 units
Count: +6 > 2x6 units

just my opinion, someone else feel free to modify.

as for hand signal ideas, i would highly recommend a read of Million dollar blackjack or Ken Uston on Blackjack as they both detail good ways to signal both bets and playing decisions so your friend wouldnt have to do anything but drink and converse with the PC. of course, modify your signals if you read those books, as i promise you the casinos have read them too..

 

[SD Padres]

Thanks for all the input guys. Team play is something I have never tried but only read about in various books. Yes...I would just flat bet and let him spread. I think this is best.

Rukus...do you have sims for your suggested spread? BR is 10k for this adventure. I usually use KO-P when playing alone but thinking maybe using reKO to simplify and avoid too many complications for signaling.

Count: 0 1 unit
Count: 1 2 units
Count: 2-3 4 units
Count: 4-5 6 units
Count: +6 > 8 units

 

[rukus]

Thanks for all the input guys. Team play is something I have never tried but only read about in various books. Yes...I would just flat bet and let him spread. I think this is best.

Rukus...do you have sims for your suggested spread? BR is 10k for this adventure. I usually use KO-P when playing alone but thinking maybe using reKO to simplify and avoid too many complications for signaling.

Count: 0 1 unit
Count: 1 2 units
Count: 2-3 4 units
Count: 4-5 6 units
Count: +6 > 8 units

i would definitely recommend spreading to two hands - it is something ploppies might naturally do to "change the flow of the cards" anyway, and it allows you to get more money on the tables with the same amount of risk. i personally spread to two hands as soon as my count tells me i have an advantage in shoe games, and always play two hands in 1/2D games.

as for the sims you requested - i havent ever done any sims on KO and am currently away from my home computer (which has my sim software). i can try to get it done for you later in the week though if i have the time. however, ive never simmed reKO, so unless CVData has that system included, it might take me a bit. if you and your son plan to do this fairly often, CVCX or CVData would be a great investment for you as you can experiment with different bet ramps, systems, etc. The ramps i gave you were not from sims, but were just out of common sense from what ive seen suggested to many people and is close to what i use myself.

also, one obvious thing to note - the "counts" we list above are true counts, not KO running counts. also, i am not fully familiar with reKO, so i am not sure how reKO true counts would compare to balanced true counts (though i assume they would correspond pretty well as that is the point of reKO ).

 

[SD Padres]

I bought Casino Vérité Blackjack v4 for my kid to practrice and I suppose I should probably get CVCX for myself. There is only so much you can do with the free sims online.

If you have time to run sims great... but please don't go out of your way. We won't start this up for another month or two. I need to make sure he is ready. As far as frequency goes I think we'll probably try to get in 20 hours a month to start and build on that if it is profitable. :joker:

Thanks for the suggested spreads...that gives me something to think about.

 

[EasyRhino]

Pad, I don't really like anything about your plan.

There's two common team strategies. A call-in game, and, every man for himself.

In EMFH, you'd want to play at seperate tables, otherwise your results are linked by covariance, and you both need to drop you max bets to 70% of a one-handed max. Even worse, If you're both spreading, you'll be mutually highlighting each other as counters. You need to stay at seperate tables.

A call-in game on DD has other problems:
- The counts may not last very long before the shuffle, especially in a poorly penetrated game (common in SD county).
- Many games restrict mid shoe entry
- Leaving another player flat-betting and eating cards in a DD game is going to have a greater relative card dilution factor than in a shoe game.
- To play off stereotype, you'd probably have the older player being the Gorilla, not the younger one.
- A Gorilla with only one spotter is going to be idling a very large amount of the time.

So basically what I'm saying is, do EMFH at seperate tables, or do a call-in game at the shoes.

Also, question: with your initial proposed bet spread, are you referring to KO counts, or hi-lo counts?

 

[Mimosine]

- A Gorilla with only one spotter is going to be idling a very large amount of the time.

So basically what I'm saying is, do EMFH at seperate tables, or do a call-in game at the shoes.
?

In BJA The Don shows that even having one back counter working for you increases your EV substantially. ~50% i think/hour. Because now you can wong into twice as many shoes per hour. Instead of playing 25 hands/hour, you probably can play 35-45.

Another positive thing about the gorilla approach is that if you have someone sitting at a table flat betting, if the count goes ape and the table is full, the flat bettor can wong out, opening up a spot for the gorilla.

 

[SD Padres]

Pad, I don't really like anything about your plan.

There's two common team strategies. A call-in game, and, every man for himself.

In EMFH, you'd want to play at seperate tables, otherwise your results are linked by covariance, and you both need to drop you max bets to 70% of a one-handed max. Even worse, If you're both spreading, you'll be mutually highlighting each other as counters. You need to stay at seperate tables.

A call-in game on DD has other problems:
- The counts may not last very long before the shuffle, especially in a poorly penetrated game (common in SD county).
- Many games restrict mid shoe entry
- Leaving another player flat-betting and eating cards in a DD game is going to have a greater relative card dilution factor than in a shoe game.
- To play off stereotype, you'd probably have the older player being the Gorilla, not the younger one.
- A Gorilla with only one spotter is going to be idling a very large amount of the time.

So basically what I'm saying is, do EMFH at seperate tables, or do a call-in game at the shoes.

Also, question: with your initial proposed bet spread, are you referring to KO counts, or hi-lo counts?

I appreciate your input. You make some very valid points. However this is my take and I could be off base so let me know.

1)Flat betting would eat cards but we will be at $25 min tables and it's very easy to gets heads up let alone 2 players alone at the table. Not a problem there. I won't eat up too many cards flat betting.

2) It would not be a call-in game. We would both be at table for duration.

3)Yes, KO count and going back and looking at spreads they are way too low. The whole idea is to get away with crazy spreads and I'd need to adjust my original numbers.

4)As long as kid is not watching cards that is key to me. I think he could get away with almost anything as long as we don't play too long in one store.


Thanks again and we'll see how it goes!

 

[zengrifter]

I bought Casino Vérité Blackjack v4 for my kid to practrice .

Make sure he drills, not plays... YOU TOO! zg

 

[Paradox]

Ouch!!!!

My head hurts just thinking about all of the problems you have created for yourself.

I have no doubt that you think you’ve been playing at a semi-pro level for decades. In reality, you probably have the skills to be a pro, but your spread puts you among the rank amateurs. 1-4 at DD is way way way too small.

You need to do some hard evaluations of your goals. Is it to have fun with your kid and have a very slight advantage over the house? If so, your plan would do it. Realize that you may not see that advantage in your lifetime, based on the N0 of your game.

If you want to get the money and that is the goal…
Split up and play EMFH, as EasyRhino suggested. EasyRhino’s suggestions are all great, take them to heart. 1-8 is the smallest spread, with your max bet out at TC+4, that I could recommend. I use 1-12 or 1-15 when I play DD. I use 1-8 or 1-12 on SD in Reno! Shoe games should be played with 1-20 or 1-30 if you are not Wonging.

CVCX is a great product, but with the complex questions you’ve raised you’ll need CVData.

My only reason for playing as part of a team is to decrease the “long run”, expressed as N0. (That’s “N” “zero”, the number of hands that you must play to be reasonably assured that you will get your advantage over the house) I use 2SD which is 4x the N0 of 1SD. If you don’t already understand what I’m talking about then you haven’t been playing at a semi-pro level and you don’t understand why a team is almost required to beat today’s games. No disrespect, just a dose of reality.

It is tough out here in the real world of counting and money is often hard to come by for many. If your bankroll is unlimited and you’re just out for fun with your son, do what you want. If your goal is to make money, do more homework. DD’s posts over at greenchip (BJ21.com) are all you need to know. Just search them out on the general page.

Cheers and Good “luck”,
Paradox