New to Blackjack, a couple questions

[falstaffpac]

I purchased the Casino Verite simulator and have memorized basic strategy. I've nearly completed committing the play variations to memory (GameMaster Blackjack school, provided with the software).

I plan to play at a local casino where doubling after split and dealer hitting soft 17 are in play. 6 deck shoe (St. Louis area). I believe I figured perfect basic strategy play results in the house enjoying approximately 0.6% edge under these conditions (does this sound right?). I'm interested to know how much that edge is trimmed by adding the play variations.

Also, reading suggests a 1-12 betting spread. Minimum table bet will be $10 I was wondering if by reducing my betting spread am I simply reducing my variance? Or, am I not going to be compensated adequately to overcome the house edge long term?

Could I theoretically play a 5 bet spread (IE TC<=1 $10, TC=1 $20, TC=2 $30, TC>=3 $50) or will this not be sufficient long term to beat the house?

Thanks

 

[tripsix]

A couple of answers.

It's critical you know the House advantage is about .6%. Good job! Remember each + true count only gives you about a .5% advantage, actually .46% for 1st deck out of 6D shoe. So wait until +2 before increasing your bets.

On a $10 table I might spread to 2 hands at TC=+3 and factor in co-variance to keep your bets under $100 most of the time. A 1-12 spread with max at 2X$90 may be exactly what you should do. A very knowledgable player, IMO, has suggested a 1-10 spread can beat this game wonging out at tc=-1. Even finding a way to wong in to your first shoe may be helpful. Those adjoining tables can be so interesting sometimes. ;D

On the Gamemaster's website there is an article which suggests a 1-16 spread. If you do that and your bets exceed the 'checks play' you may want to consider calling it a night. That choice may be affected by your act, other peoples average bet and availability of games in your area.

Hope this helps.

 

[QFIT]

Advantage at TC 0 is not the same as basic strategy. It is higher. See Modern Blackjack Page 106.

The advantage increase from TC 0 to TC +1 is substantially higher than .5. See Modern Blackjack Page 363.

Some advantages by count for various systems can be found at Modern Blackjack Page 196. Although this is for S17, DAS, LS.

 

[21forme]

A few questions, Norm:

1. What is the reason for the difference between BS and TC=0 advantages?

2. In your chart on p. 363 is the big difference between +13 and adjacent counts due to the small number of hands at those counts (and the computer being "unlucky") or something else?

Thanks.

 

[QFIT]

A few questions, Norm:

1. What is the reason for the difference between BS and TC=0 advantages?

Well, for one thing, counters don't use BS. So why would anyone expect them to be the same? For example, counters don't play 10v6 the same. In addition, TC=0 is not really TC=0. It is a range of fractional counts.

2. In your chart on p. 363 is the big difference between +13 and adjacent counts due to the small number of hands at those counts (and the computer being "unlucky") or something else?

Thanks.

It may be the small number of hands at that TC in the sim. Or it may be the unusual compositions needed to reach that TC. Remember that BJ is not linear. There are a small number of cards with integer counts. When counts are extremely low or high, oddball compositions exist.

 

[falstaffpac]

I wanted to say thanks for the hyperlinks to the "Modern Blackjack" online book. I initially d/l the Verite Blackjack software and read the bundled "Blackjack school" information, but it was very sparse in terms of information. After I purchased the Verite software, I was hoping the manual would contain a body of information. But, it was a straight forward user manual for the software.

The "Modern Blackjack" book is very well done and just what I was wanting to read.

 

[FLASH1296]

Huh ?

QFIT,

In Modern Blackjack, the table: "Advantage by Count" shows how widely the differences between counts can be.

What I am mystified by is the values listed for ZEN.

They are radically different from what I had in mind.

I always thought that the value of the ZEN T.C. would be such that, [in the shoe game used here], the advantages would read something on the order of (approx.):

• +1 = - .10
• +2 = + .15
• +3 = + .40
• +4 = + .65
• +5 = +. 90

Your table's advantages run from +1.52 to 6.45
Why does it conclude at +5 ?

Also, I need clarification on the following:

I thought that a rough equivalency in T.C. between Hi-Lo ~ and ~ ZEN could be had by multiplying the Hi-Lo T.C. by 1.7

 

[QFIT]

This is the Zen that divides by qtr decks remaining.

 

[FLASH1296]

Having used the [full] Zen Count for two decades I had always ignored that.

In my mind that was nothing less than "Snyder's Folly"

I had always presumed that nobody actually used the silly "True Edge" methodology.

 

[BJQueen]

you are quite an arrogant man Flash. In my experience of arrogant men (i have loads) they are generally a bit weird? sorry, just an observation.

 

[FLASH1296]

There is no arrogance expressed here.

Snyder erred and all but admitted such;
as he was obliged to quickly publish a
re-computation of the FULL Zen indices
after "True Edge" was roundly rejected
by the consensus BJ community.

It remains available on his website.

 

[tripsix]

Let me elaborate.

Advantage at TC 0 is not the same as basic strategy. It is higher. See Modern Blackjack Page 106.

BTW your book is awesome, I had read this part. Thanks for reminding me. =)

The advantage increase from TC 0 to TC +1 is substantially higher than .5. See Modern Blackjack Page 363.

My number of about .46 advantage increase in 1st deck of 6D was from a bar chart on floating advantage I viewed previously on your website. Couldn't find it, it was all red bars. I did find a similar chart. See Modern Blackjack Page 426.

Some advantages by count for various systems can be found at Modern Blackjack Page 196. Although this is for S17, DAS, LS.

Thanks for showing me I wasn't too far off. If you could point me to the original chart I was talking about, it would be cool. I don't mind being wrong, just want to learn from it.:whip:

Most importantly does the poster actually have an advantage with HiLO at TC+1, gamemaster indices, H17, DAS (assume DOA,NS) in the first deck of a 6D shoe?

 

[StandardDeviant]

Also, reading suggests a 1-12 betting spread. Minimum table bet will be $10 I was wondering if by reducing my betting spread am I simply reducing my variance? Or, am I not going to be compensated adequately to overcome the house edge long term?

Depending on playing conditions and rules, a spread somewhere in the range of 1:2 to 1:4 will produce a positive expectation, albeit very small. Players spread more than this, to make money rather than tread water. Higher spreads produce higher expected earnings and higher variances. Too bad risk and reward have to be linked this way.

All other things being equal, the more you spread, the more likely your play will be noticeable to the house. This may or may not matter based on how you play, how often you play, how long you play, etc.

While the following will no doubt draw reaction from the group here, you might consider keeping your spread somewhat low, let's say 1:4 or 1:6 until you feel you can count without looking like a counter, and until you're confident that you're keeping the count accurately. After that, you can crank it up a notch. Don't be the idiot sitting at 3rd base with the baseball cap, staring intently at the cards, with his lips moving, jumping bets from 1 to 20 in line with the TC.

Keep in mind that there is a tradeoff between longevity and expected earnings per hour. Crank up the latter to the max, and you'd better be properly funded so you don't blow up your bank roll, and so you have money to travel the world as you get barred by casino after casino.

 

[QFIT]

Having used the [full] Zen Count for two decades I had always ignored that.

In my mind that was nothing less than "Snyder's Folly"

I had always presumed that nobody actually used the silly "True Edge" methodology.

In fact, almost no one actually uses TE methodology including the people that think they do. But, they do use qtr deck TCs.

 

[QFIT]

Most importantly does the poster actually have an advantage with HiLO at TC+1, gamemaster indices, H17, DAS (assume DOA,NS) in the first deck of a 6D shoe?

In the first deck? Probably very little if any.