New to counting, using Wong Halves with 6+ decks

[Polymath]

Hi, I'm new here and using the Wong Halves method for card counting. I know it's one of the difficult ones but I enjoy challenges. I've read Professional Blackjack by Stanford Wong and saw his tables for the Wong Halves. However, the games I play are over six decks and not four decks like in the book so I expected there be little changes and after loading Casino Verite, there were. Thus, I was able to get the tables for over six decks (doubling the fractions of course). S17 and DS. See the attached file.

I just want to make sure that these tables are correct. Oh, and should I consider replacing the default anything under -20 or above 20? In Professional Blackjack Stanford Wong removed it for his tables, and feel that it should be done here to save memorization and also that having a true count below -20 and above 20 is very rare.

Lastly, do you have any advice for a starter? I am not devoting my time to being a professional or anything, but from time to time I am able to go to the casinos and would like to be at an advantage. I understand the amount of profit will be very small.

 

[bjcount]

Hi, I'm new here and using the Wong Halves method for card counting. I know it's one of the difficult ones but I enjoy challenges. I've read Professional Blackjack by Stephen Wong and saw his tables for the Wong Halves. However, the games I play are over six decks and not four decks like in the book so I expected there be little changes and after loading Casino Verite, there were. Thus, I was able to get the tables for over six decks (doubling the fractions of course). S17 and DS. See the attached file.

I just want to make sure that these tables are correct. Oh, and should I consider replacing the default anything under -20 or above 20? In Professional Blackjack Stephen Wong removed it for his tables, and feel that it should be done here to save memorization and also that having a true count below -20 and above 20 is very rare.

Lastly, do you have any advice for a starter? I am not devoting my time to being a professional or anything, but from time to time I am able to go to the casinos and would like to be at an advantage. I understand the amount of profit will be very small.

Before you take on the challenge of a difficult count you should learn that the authors name is not Stephen Wong.

but you were close, Stanford Wong.

Don't make errors like this counting, they can become very costly.


Read, study, practice, read again, study again, practice again.
Than
Read, study, practice, and finally play.

I don't use halves, but I would drop the extreme counts, just as you say, they rarely ever are met.

and welcome new member.

BJC

Edit: There are many valuable resources on bjinfo for new players... spend some time and search them out.

 

[Polymath]

Oops lol

 

[kewljason]

Hi, I'm new here and using the Wong Halves method for card counting. I know it's one of the difficult ones but I enjoy challenges. I've read Professional Blackjack by Stanford Wong and saw his tables for the Wong Halves. However, the games I play are over six decks and not four decks like in the book so I expected there be little changes and after loading Casino Verite, there were. Thus, I was able to get the tables for over six decks (doubling the fractions of course). S17 and DS. See the attached file.

I just want to make sure that these tables are correct. Oh, and should I consider replacing the default anything under -20 or above 20? In Professional Blackjack Stanford Wong removed it for his tables, and feel that it should be done here to save memorization and also that having a true count below -20 and above 20 is very rare.

Lastly, do you have any advice for a starter? I am not devoting my time to being a professional or anything, but from time to time I am able to go to the casinos and would like to be at an advantage. I understand the amount of profit will be very small.

My advice for a starter would be don't start with the Halves count. I can appreciate that you read Wong's book and enjoy a good challenge, but I would advise you start with a level 1 count such as hi-lo. It is more than adequate for the game you are describing. Learning to count perfectly while memorizing hundreds of playing indices, as you are suggusting (but also is too many in my opinion) and doing all this undetected is quite a challenging feat. There's no need to complicate this by starting off with a more difficult count that will yield only slightly better results. Even Lance Armstrong learned to crawl before he jumped on a bike. There will be plenty of time to advance to a level 2 or 3 count later on if you still feel it worth the effort. (a point which is often debated here)

good luck and welcome to the board.

 

[Polymath]

My advice for a starter would be don't start with the Halves count. I can appreciate that you read Wong's book and enjoy a good challenge, but I would advise you start with a level 1 count such as hi-lo. It is more than adequate for the game you are describing. Learning to count perfectly while memorizing hundreds of playing indices, as you are suggusting (but also is too many in my opinion) and doing all this undetected is quite a challenging feat. There's no need to complicate this by starting off with a more difficult count that will yield only slightly better results. Even Lance Armstrong learned to crawl before he jumped on a bike. There will be plenty of time to advance to a level 2 or 3 count later on if you still feel it worth the effort. (a point which is often debated here)

good luck and welcome to the board.

Well actually a few years ago I did use the hi-lo count and found it relatively easy. I just began going back to blackjack as I have a summer goal of learning how to perform top tier counts. You might think I'm underestimating the difficulty of the halves, but I have a strong mathematical background in probability and quite a decent memory.

 

[zengrifter]

Well actually a few years ago I did use the hi-lo count and found it relatively easy. I just began going back to blackjack as I have a summer goal of learning how to perform top tier counts. You might think I'm underestimating the difficulty of the halves, but I have a strong mathematical background in probability and quite a decent memory.

Halves will be fine for you. zg

 

[nc-tom]

Hi, I'm new here and using the Wong Halves method for card counting. I know it's one of the difficult ones but I enjoy challenges. I've read Professional Blackjack by Stanford Wong and saw his tables for the Wong Halves. However, the games I play are over six decks and not four decks like in the book so I expected there be little changes and after loading Casino Verite, there were. Thus, I was able to get the tables for over six decks (doubling the fractions of course). S17 and DS. See the attached file.

I just want to make sure that these tables are correct. Oh, and should I consider replacing the default anything under -20 or above 20? In Professional Blackjack Stanford Wong removed it for his tables, and feel that it should be done here to save memorization and also that having a true count below -20 and above 20 is very rare.

Lastly, do you have any advice for a starter? I am not devoting my time to being a professional or anything, but from time to time I am able to go to the casinos and would like to be at an advantage. I understand the amount of profit will be very small.

polymath am i getting this right . You said you played before but you claim to be a "starter" and you have not been playing for a while but you are using Wongs Halves count?are you related to Stephen Hawking? If you are as smart as you claim you should not have any problems.Good luck.Should not be a problem with the index numbers

 

[bjtocki]

By my own experience playing BJ is

Experience = 90%
Card Couting = 10%


I have probably read 95% of the BJ books in the market and have been practicing on CVBJ for 3 months everyday before even hitting the casino for the first time. But I realized that there were 90% more that I had to learn from experience... so you need to play, play, and play... I use Hi-Lo, but have practiced with several other systems, including Halves, but halves drains my brain very quickly, probably within 20 minutes (of course, at home you can count for hours without getting tired), but Hi-Lo can let me play for hours without any problems in the real casinos. I don't know if this will help, but I am a programmer, so I am not that far removed from math either

 

[kewljason]

Well actually a few years ago I did use the hi-lo count and found it relatively easy. I just began going back to blackjack as I have a summer goal of learning how to perform top tier counts. You might think I'm underestimating the difficulty of the halves, but I have a strong mathematical background in probability and quite a decent memory.

I didn't mean to imply that you would not be able to master halves, polymath. You indicated that you were not devoting your time to being a professional, that you just wanted to occassionally play with an advantage. Hi-lo is more than adaquate for that purpose. I played hi-lo for 3 years before moving to the level 2 RPC. After a year of RPC, I realized the advantage gained from a higher count was minimal, especially with the 6 and 8 decks games that you mentioned, which I also play 1000+ hours per year, so I went back to hi-lo. I know others on the board have expressed a different opinion. Halves certainly will work just fine though. good luck!

 

[zengrifter]

I didn't mean to imply that you would not be able to master halves, polymath. You indicated that you were not devoting your time to being a professional, that you just wanted to occassionally play with an advantage. Hi-lo is more than adaquate for that purpose. I played hi-lo for 3 years before moving to the level 2 RPC. After a year of RPC, I realized the advantage gained from a higher count was minimal, especially with the 6 and 8 decks games that you mentioned, which I also play 1000+ hours per year, so I went back to hi-lo. I know others on the board have expressed a different opinion. Halves certainly will work just fine though. good luck!

If he's a math guy he can use Halves as easily as a non-math guy can use KO. zg

 

[FLASH1296]

Excellent Choice


In a shoe game HALVES is "as good as it gets"
The high betting correlation is its strength, as it is .99 !
The playing efficiency is fair and the Insurance Correlation is adequate.

In any shoe game the betting correlation is of primary importance.
One must rely on very accurate bet-sizing to win in shoe games.

The inference to be drawn is that any beginner employing the HALVES needs to be skillful in True Count computation and would do well to do the following:

1. Compute a matrix of "Risk Averse" Indices for violating Basic Strategy.
2. Address the issue of "Risk of Ruin"
3. Derive (your) "Optimal" betting ramp.

These tasks (and more) can be accomplished without difficulty by purchasing the CVcx and CVdata software package. Highly recommended.

Link:

http://www.qfit.com/blackjack-simulation.htm

 

[Polymath]

In a shoe game HALVES is "as good as it gets"
The high betting correlation is its strength, as it is .99 !
The playing efficiency is fair and the Insurance Correlation is adequate.

In any shoe game the betting correlation is of primary importance.
One must rely on very accurate bet-sizing to win in shoe games.

The inference to be drawn is that any beginner employing the HALVES needs to be skillful in True Count computation and would do well to do the following:

1. Compute a matrix of "Risk Averse" Indices for violating Basic Strategy.
2. Address the issue of "Risk of Ruin"
3. Derive (your) "Optimal" betting ramp.

These tasks (and more) can be accomplished without difficulty by purchasing the CVcx and CVdata software package. Highly recommended.

Link:

http://www.qfit.com/blackjack-simulation.htm

Thanks.

And just to note: people are different. What may not work for the majority does not mean it won't work for a person. I appreciate the advice though.

 

[JSTAT]

Well actually a few years ago I did use the hi-lo count and found it relatively easy. I just began going back to blackjack as I have a summer goal of learning how to perform top tier counts. You might think I'm underestimating the difficulty of the halves, but I have a strong mathematical background in probability and quite a decent memory.

Did you win using hi-lo?

 

[Polymath]

Did you win using hi-lo?

Yes.

 

[rukus]

Did you win using hi-lo?

does it matter? he probably didnt play enough a few years back for it to even be statistically significant.

[rant]
not directed at you jstat, but i hate how on these boards people give sh!t to others for wanted to use a more advanced count to get an extra (0.1%) edge or whatever. i dont go into battle unless i know i have every edge i can reasonably get. others should be no different. if someone says they can handle a count and wants info on it, why do people always change the topic back to "why not just use hi lo? (insert count) is too complicated for a casual player". let them do as they please, especially if they are looking to get an extra edge and can handle the added complexity. stop settling for mediocrity!
[/rant]

 

[Polymath]

does it matter? he probably didnt play enough a few years back for it to even be statistically significant.

[rant]
not directed at you jstat, but i hate how on these boards people give sh!t to others for wanted to use a more advanced count to get an extra (0.1%) edge or whatever. i dont go into battle unless i know i have every edge i can reasonably get. others should be no different. if someone says they can handle a count and wants info on it, why do people always change the topic back to "why not just use hi lo? (insert count) is too complicated for a casual player". let them do as they please, especially if they are looking to get an extra edge and can handle the added complexity. stop settling for mediocrity!
[/rant]

I agree. I mean, the way I see it is if the person has trouble with the harder count, he or she will learn from his or her mistakes. I know words are meaningless on the Internet, but when I say I have a good memory--I mean it. Polymath is not just an alias. I guess the effect on the boards can be explained by the majority of late teen newbies who have just watched the movie 21 post here about learning the best method and thinking it's a breeze.

In retrospect, I am here to learn one of the hard counts in order to get the most out of blackjack for my type of game. Sure, I might not be playing professionally, but there's no harm in learning the best of the best is there?

 

[kewljason]

In retrospect, I am here to learn one of the hard counts in order to get the most out of blackjack for my type of game. Sure, I might not be playing professionally, but there's no harm in learning the best of the best is there?

If you want to learn a harder count, then learn a harder count. Just because you can, doesn't mean you should. You are only adding a few hundreds of a percent gain to your advantage. If you really want to "get the most blackjack for your type of game", you would be far better off using that "good memory" and math skills for advanced techniques that would add a much higher gain to your advantage.

 

[rukus]

If you want to learn a harder count, then learn a harder count. Just because you can, doesn't mean you should. You are only adding a few hundreds of a percent gain to your advantage. If you really want to "get the most blackjack for your type of game", you would be far better off using that "good memory" and math skills for advanced techniques that would add a much higher gain to your advantage.

why are they mutually exclusive? ppl can do both...

 

[FLASH1296]

The difference IS significant.

Typically, if one switches from a level one count like
K.O. or Hi-Lo to a level two count e.g. Hi-Opt II, AOII,
RPC, ZEN your expectation will increase - depending
on the game - somewhere between 15% and 25%.

There are numerous sim's in Blackjack Attack, 3rd ed.
(and other sources) that demonstrate this.

I am a pro player. If I have a choice between doing essentially the same job
and receiving $20 per hour or $25 per hour I will view it as a "no-brainer."

 

[kewljason]

First of all, Your numbers are high. A level two count will not gain a 25% advantage over a level one count for a six deck game that the poster described.

Secondly, you say you are a professional which is fine. Initially the poster stated that he wasn't a professional nor did he want to be one, that he just wanted to play from time to time with an advantage. He said he was " a starter", which implied he didn't have any or much experience and was new to counting. He kind of backed up his status by referring to "stephen wong's" book, before correcting that post.

He asked for suggustions for a starter, so I gave my opionion that hi-lo is all thats needed.

He later changed his situation to having experience years ago playing hi-lo and was looking to "get the most out of his blackjack game".