Newbie Here!

#1
Hi everyone! First post here on this site. Glad to meet you all!

I'm new to serious blackjack study. Maybe I should post this in the
regular blackjack forum but the book I'm reading is the K-O book
on counting cards.

The last few years I've been caught up in the poker craze and bought
and read just about all the big books out there on the game. After spending
three hours in a $1.00 sit and go beating 30 people and only winning
$20.00 I realized it's not really worth the time. I guess I'm tired of the fad or something. lol. I never played high stakes poker tho.

Anyway, I've always wanted to learn the trick to counting cards and find
out how hard or easy it was. After doing a little research I found that the
K-O method is the most easy system to learn but also powerful. So I went
for that book and hey - only $20.00 or so dollars on amazon. So far the book
has been well worth the money and easy to read and follow.

I post on usenet and went to the blackjack groups but only found
spam. I punched in "blackjack discussion" on google and that led me to here.

I have only played blackjack once in a real casino - that was on a cruise ship. I did not know what I was doing except beat the dealer and don’t' bust. I can't remember how many decks but I think it was two. I did not touch the cards. I put down $20.00 I won like three our four bets in a row, ended up with $100.00, and grabbed my chips and ran! I went back a few days later to win more money and lost all the money I made! lol

As I said, the book I have is the K-O book. I'm about 2/3's the way thru
it. I have the basic strategy memorized. I have half the preferred matrix
memorized and will put the rest to memory. I don’t' have any of it down cold
tho. I can play blackjack with myself but it takes me a minute or so to run
the chart in my head and think what I should do. It does seem to be coming
to me faster the more I play. Seems like most the hands I'm dealt are hard hands, few soft hands, and fewer pairs.

One of the most fun things I like doing is counting thru a deck of cards. I can
count thru one deck in 27 seconds. However, I'm not 200% perfect yet. If I do it five times in a row I will be right three or four times. I have a problem of trying to count faster than my brain will allow me. I've only been doing
this for two weeks. The last few days counting under 35 seconds has become very easy.

I bought some flash cards and am practicing what I should do with certain hands. I'm also practicing some basic addition - instead of adding 12 + 9
in my head I'm trying to simply memorize it so I can recognize it instantly which will hopefully let me concentrate on the running count.

As for the running count - I have tried a few times to keep the running count
while playing blackjack with myself but with trying to do the right thing with the hands I lose count easily.

That's about it. I've been at this for about two weeks now. I want to hit a casino and count cards and make money! :)
 

letsdothis21

Well-Known Member
#2
just read your post, im new too so dont really have anything to say other than the fact that you should have used that $20 from poker and bought into a bigger tourny worth more money :)
 

ChefJJ

Well-Known Member
#3
Hoosier-

Welcome to the board & the game of blackjack. I use KO, and here's what I recommend:

1. Memorize basic strategy (BS) perfectly. And perfectly means perfectly. If you are in Indiana (assumption), you need to memorize the multiple-deck BS since there are slight differences between single deck and multi. But you need to have that down without much thought, regardless of whether you are going to count cards are not. If you are counting, however, it is important for BS to be natural...there's already enough you need to be concentrating on!

2. Learn to count. Not just by counting down a deck to see how fast you are, but by learning to count in game situations. Learn how to cancel the cards out (K + 7 = 0), it will reduce how much you actually count. Also, deal yourself a game situation on a table with 6 or 7 hands and the dealer's hand. Play through it, figure out the most comfortable way to count while making all the right BS moves.

3. Memorize the betting scheme and index plays. KO is nice for that sort of thing because there are two identifiable points at which you begin to ramp your bets and make BS deviations.

4. Finally, tweak the KO system to fit the way you count and the way you work with numbers. Some work it so you never have a negative count. I don't mind negatives, so I rig it that my bet ramp starts when the count is 0, regardless of how many decks I play.

good luck & welcome
 
#4
I`m also a newbie in this field, I don`t even know how to count the cards.
But what bothers me the most is- can you play "your game" in online casinos, 888.com for an example, or does it only work in real life casinos at a real BJ table?
Thankies in advance!
 
#5
ChefJJ said:
Hoosier-

Welcome to the board & the game of blackjack. I use KO, and here's what I recommend:

1. Memorize basic strategy (BS) perfectly. And perfectly means perfectly. If you are in Indiana (assumption), you need to memorize the multiple-deck BS since there are slight differences between single deck and multi. But you need to have that down without much thought, regardless of whether you are going to count cards are not. If you are counting, however, it is important for BS to be natural...there's already enough you need to be concentrating on!

The k-O book has one basic strategy and one basic preferred matrix that
they say go ahead and use. They have the complete matrix in the back of the book but say you don't gain that much from putting it to memory. They say, so far, that the rounded out BS and preferred matrix is enough to win
with counting cards and taking insurance. They also so stick to their BS
100% and never deviate (unless using preferred matrix.)

So, if I study this for six months to one year and get their BS and preferred
matrix down pact, count the way I'm suppose to, I will win over the long run?

I've been counting down thru a deck of cars in two's which is a lot more
fun than counting one by one. I'm starting to detest one by one, it's long
and boring. I can blow thru a deck counting two by two.

Anyway, I'm having fun so far. It would be cool to go into a casino and
turn the odds around at a game where I get the positive odds and the casino
gets the negative odds!

Wonder what they do to card counters in the those gambling ships that
go out to sea for a few hours? Throw them over board? :)
 

Canceler

Well-Known Member
#7
Sounds like you're doing well so far!

HoosierAce said:
The k-O book has one basic strategy
I'd recommend using the Basic Strategy Engine on this site to generate the exact basic strategy for the game you'll be playing.

HoosierAce said:
So, if I study this for six months to one year
It won't take that long!

HoosierAce said:
count the way I'm suppose to
Learning to count in the actual casino environment can sometimes be difficult. There are things you can do for that, though.

HoosierAce said:
I will win over the long run?
Yes. I'm glad you have an appreciation for the long term nature of this game. Seems kind of rare in newbies.

HoosierAce said:
I've been counting down thru a deck of cars in two's which is a lot more
fun than counting one by one. I'm starting to detest one by one, it's long
and boring. I can blow thru a deck counting two by two.
Counting by twos, or threes, is not cheating.

HoosierAce said:
Wonder what they do to card counters in the those gambling ships that
go out to sea for a few hours? Throw them over board? :)
That's why the KO book has an appendix on swimming! :joker:
 

Sonny

Well-Known Member
#8
HoosierAce said:
Are there any free or low cost programs that I can practice basic blackjack strategy and card counting on?
See the sticky thread titled "Free Counting Resources On Web" at the top of this forum for lots of useful info and programs.

-Sonny-
 
#9
Sonny said:
See the sticky thread titled "Free Counting Resources On Web" at the top of this forum for lots of useful info and programs.

-Sonny-

Thanks. I did a quick look and found a program for counting but it
was a Hi-Lo count and not an uneven count like k-O. Any programs
for the K-O counters?
 

ChefJJ

Well-Known Member
#10
HoosierAce said:
Thanks. I did a quick look and found a program for counting but it
was a Hi-Lo count and not an uneven count like k-O. Any programs
for the K-O counters?
Not that this helps you with your exact question, but I recommend just doing it by hand. On the coffee table with say, 6 or 8 decks, deal out a simulation game with several hands and the dealer's hand. At first, you can have your BS chart right there with whatever other cheat sheet you may want to have for KO and go from there. I've never used a computer sim to learn counting or BS, and I'm sure it works for many, but I prefer cards and chips to practice the trifecta: BS, counting, and betting. It's more like the casino environment rather than the laptop, so that's how I roll.

good luck
 
#11
S!nTeZ said:
I`m also a newbie in this field, I don`t even know how to count the cards.
But what bothers me the most is- can you play "your game" in online casinos, 888.com for an example, or does it only work in real life casinos at a real BJ table?
Thankies in advance!
Oh come on guys the answer is either yes you can count online ar no you can`t!:(
 

ChefJJ

Well-Known Member
#12
S!nTeZ said:
Oh come on guys the answer is either yes you can count online ar no you can`t!:(
Never played online. A lot around here would tell you that the only way to have an advantage in BJ online is by using the bonuses and such. If I remember correctly, they use something equivalent to a continuous shuffling machine. Each new deal starts it all over...no count, no advantage.
 
#14
ChefJJ said:
Hoosier-

Welcome to the board & the game of blackjack. I use KO, and here's what I recommend:

4. Finally, tweak the KO system to fit the way you count and the way you work with numbers. Some work it so you never have a negative count. I don't mind negatives, so I rig it that my bet ramp starts when the count is 0, regardless of how many decks I play.

good luck & welcome


In the back of the book is the full matrix tables for various decks.
I was looking them over but I don’t understand how to read them.
In the single deck full matrix for example it says for hard 16/dealer
up card of 7 = 8. For hard 15/dealer up card of 8 = 9. What does
this 8 and 9 mean and what I am suppose to do?
 

ChefJJ

Well-Known Member
#15
HoosierAce said:
In the back of the book is the full matrix tables for various decks.
I was looking them over but I don’t understand how to read them.
In the single deck full matrix for example it says for hard 16/dealer
up card of 7 = 8. For hard 15/dealer up card of 8 = 9. What does
this 8 and 9 mean and what I am suppose to do?
I think you're using the full-blown version, and I just stick to the "condensed" version that assigns index plays to the pivot point and key count (and insurance). All of the index plays aren't really worth it to me because of the fact that I play at an irregular frequency.

So, that being said, in this instance, the 8 refers to what the dealer's card that is shown (dealer's up card). The 9 refers to at what count you would make a strategy deviation on your 15. In this case, a count of 9 or above, you would stand rather than hit (as per BS). High count = more high cards, less advantage to hit your 15.
 
#16
ChefJJ said:
I think you're using the full-blown version, and I just stick to the "condensed" version that assigns index plays to the pivot point and key count (and insurance). All of the index plays aren't really worth it to me because of the fact that I play at an irregular frequency.


Thanks. One more question that I think I already know - the
condensed version matrix has 17 entries. For 8 it says 8 with a
down arrow meaning 8 and below - in that column they have
an A under 5 and an A under 6. Does that mean hands like
7 vs. up card of 5, I should go with A? What about a hand of
5 vs. up card of 6? Go with A?

They say there are only 17 entries to memorize so I assume hands like
4,5,6, and 7 always are played by basic strategy.
 

eps6724

Well-Known Member
#17
HoosierAce said:
and get their BS and preferred
matrix down pact, count the way I'm suppose to, I will win over the long run?
I still have a lot to learn, but if I were asked for one thing that needs to be firmly implanted in a new counters mind, it's "I will win over the long run". 'Cause you're gonna need that reminder when the 'odds' say you should win and you're getting stomped! And you will!:whip:
 

Knox

Well-Known Member
#18
I play KO too. It is a great strategy to learn with since it is so easy yet effective.

Learn the single generic basic strategy first. It is easy enough to tweak it later for playing conditions but the EV gain is not worth it for you right now. Be sure to learn DAS vs noDAS though, it is a tiny footnote on one of the pages but quite important.

Don't worry about speed, I think it is overrated. I can keep up with the fastest dealers fine an I doubt I am anywhere near 27 seconds for counting down a deck. Deal out the cards two at a time and the suggestion about cancelling out each hand is excellent, that is what I do. For example, when someone gets a 10 and a 5, mentally say to yourself "ignore".

Stay away from the KO full system in the back of the book. You are nowhere near ready for that. In addition, the gain in EV, similar to the multiple basic strategies, is not worth it. And once again you can always add that to your arsenal later, once you can play perfect KO preferred in the casino and want to challenge yourself a bit more.

What you need to do is get some real casino experience. Dedicate a $2500 bankroll and find a good $5 place to play. Be picky about the game conditions, get the CBJN report, try to stick with DD and SD games if you can. Before you hit the casino, use the online strategy trainer here or at hitorstand.net. I had my wife do that and it helped her a lot. Once you can play perfect basic strategy you are ready for the casino. It really is not that hard.

Last comment, customizing KO is a great idea. I start all counts at 0, regardless of number of decks, and that works great for me. You just need to be sure to adjust the key count, pivot point, and insurance trigger too!
 
Last edited:
#19
One more question - I'm about to put to memory the late
surrender matrix. They say "Surrender 8-8 vs. a dealer 10
at B." Does this mean at exactly B or B and above? I assume
it means exactly at B.
 
#20
HoosierAce said:
One more question - I'm about to put to memory the late
surrender matrix. They say "Surrender 8-8 vs. a dealer 10
at B." Does this mean at exactly B or B and above? I assume
it means exactly at B.
It will take about a billion hands to make a statistically significant difference!

You can just surrender 88 vs. 10 at the same point where you would stand on 16 vs. 10
 
Top