Observations on my first three outings

aslan

Well-Known Member
#1
My first outing was never meant to be. I had just started learning KO, but was not ready. I went to Reno and incurred a substantial loss (for me) using BS. I plunged into KO in an attempt to recoup my money and lo and behold, it worked! And even more surprising, I was able to keep the RC most of the time (except for when they threw a couple of extraordinarily fast dealers at me).

On my second outing, which was to AC, I was versed in KO Rookie and I did pretty well. This trip taught me to sit in position four or five (I prefer five) where I can count the two rounds of the deal before the dealer gets to my hand. I always wait until both rounds are dealt and then quickly figure the RC, which is easy because most combinations cancel each other out (the obvious 10/5, A/4, etc. and the two separate canceling hands Q/J, 5/6, etc. or 9/A, 8/4, etc.).

On my third and last outing I actually played for thirteen hours off and on over a 16-hour period. I didn't employ the full 10X spread because my bankroll was only $5,000 (the book says I need 100 times my max bet). Also, I'm still queasy about the prospect of being spotted and asked to leave. So I played $10-$50, and when they raised the minimum to $15, I played $15-$50 until late in the wee hours when they again opened up a $10 table. I only made $1,300, but hey! who's complaining! Of course, had I been playing 10$-$100 I would have made $2,600.

I learned to carry on conversations with the dealer and other players while still maintaining the count. This ability should get better and better the more I play, although I don't intentionally start a conversation unless I think I need to better camo my play.

I also learned that if I miss a card or two to just count it as the worst case scenario, say, a minus one or minus two, depending on the situation. In that way even though I might miss the exact point at which to start betting higher, at least I know I'm at the Key Count or higher when I do.

Lastly, I found out you have to be careful how you camo yourself. I wore a Mets hat and you wouldn't believe how many people started talking to me about the Mets--everyone figured I was from NYC and an avid fan. In fact, I didn't know a single player's name or have any idea how they were doing. This created a few difficult situations, but I somehow managed to let them do most the talking--they were so happy to meet a fellow fan in AC!

I had read that a good camo of one's play was to gradually increase the bet as the count goes higher over the Key Count. I think this is a good idea. I also sometimes played two separate hands which I reasoned gave me more opportunities to hit good hands and BJ's and also to bet more without it being so conspicuous. Is this a good ploy?

I can't wait to go back. As I told a friend, "I'm going to keep returning (to the casinos) until they learn how to beat me!"
 

shadroch

Well-Known Member
#2
If confronted with a similar problem( people wanting to talk about the sports team whose hat you are wearing),and assuming you are male-tell them that you hate sports but its your boyfriends hat. That should end the conversation.

It sounds like you are off to a very nice start. Best of luck.
 

Kasi

Well-Known Member
#3
aslan said:
This trip taught me to sit in position four or five (I prefer five) where I can count the two rounds of the deal before the dealer gets to my hand. I always wait until both rounds are dealt and then quickly figure the RC.../QUOTE]

No big deal - but I usually just cancel out 2 or 3 cards AS they are being dealt rather than waiting until all are dealt. Then, even at 1st base, I have it as soon as all are dealt.

And, if I screw up, then I can go back and count the dealt cards for a second chance, just like u do.

Try it a little bit and u'll find it just as easy.
 

EasyRhino

Well-Known Member
#4
Where was the third trip? If it was AC or any of the medium-brow places in vegas, I really wouldn't sweat a $50 max bet. And you won $1300 with it? That's a nice little run. For the record, $100/hr is far far better than your expected value with your bet level.

What kind of games were you playing with the 1-5 spread? If they were shoe games, I sincerely hope you were wonging as much as possible, as that spread is quite probably still a losing proposition in a play all environment.

Finally, pop quiz for you, when you were betting two hands in a "max bet" count, how much were you betting on each spot?
 

biggamejames

Well-Known Member
#5
Sticking to one particular spread in my opinion is an easy way to get caught.(Now i have to specify that i primarily play SD or DD not shoes) so i really have no clue as to how security or the pit works multiple decks.

But if you are betting SD or DD, and you are using one basic spread, you are very easy to spot as a counter. This is because you will have a standard increament with the count that any pit boss or security personel can very easily detect.

Not to mention, the lower your spread the longer you have to spend at the table. Hence the more hands you have to play and the more of your play you expose to those who might be watching you.

I dont see how any player, (even one with a 50$ max play) can hide from security or the pit crew. Your card counting is as plain as day light to any one watching your play.

Now i guess multidecks may be different is some way but i really dont see how they are that much different, (from the point of view of the PC or security watching your action)..


This is one subject that has really bothered me about this site.

Ps..One thing i know for fact, the dealer has almost nothing to do with the fact that you are caught counting or not. Matter of fact most dealers dont even give a rats ass as long as you are throwing them some crumbs every now and then.

Most dealers dont even like the fact that the casino takes that much money from people and pays them peanuts for wages. Its the typical "us" against them mentality most of them take and most of them know that their next meal will more likely come out of your tips than the meagre casino pay check.



There is really no legit advice on beating the crew...
 

biggamejames

Well-Known Member
#6
EasyRhino said:
Where was the third trip? If it was AC or any of the medium-brow places in vegas, I really wouldn't sweat a $50 max bet. And you won $1300 with it? That's a nice little run. For the record, $100/hr is far far better than your expected value with your bet level.

What kind of games were you playing with the 1-5 spread? If they were shoe games, I sincerely hope you were wonging as much as possible, as that spread is quite probably still a losing proposition in a play all environment.

Finally, pop quiz for you, when you were betting two hands in a "max bet" count, how much were you betting on each spot?

I have to say this. Wonging out of a game is not as easy as you guys imply it is. Do it enough times in negative counts and the casino will very easily be on to you as a counter.

Secondly as most importantly for people who say that its wrong to go table hopping (and i am not talking about walking out on a shoe during a positive count so dont start bogus parallel arguments),
how is wonging out of a shoe that different. Do you assume a guy can wong out 3 or 4 times at the same table and just sit there or pretend like he has to piss every 15 minutes? (not to mention that half the ploppies at the other table will whine and moan incessantly about the counter who they dont know is actually wonging out, claiming he is "screwing up the rotation"? It may not be scientific fact, but the PC will take notice of your actions due to that whinning and groaning from your playmates!!!

Some one should also explain the exact tact you use to wong out. Do you just run to the bathroom and estimate the time it will take to run out the bad shoe? What happens if you miss time the beginning or a new shoe? or some people plopped into the seats at your spot and played out the deck?

Wouldnt this have the same time consequence as the person who left a DD table to find a new table because he couldnt beat the previous dealer?

Do you skulk around near the table while counting the cards waiting for the count to get better? If so, what do you assume the pit boss or eye in the sky is doing at during that time?


Ps..Playing in a real casino in real time opens ones eyes to many things.

Unfortunately, none of those real life facts are actually addressed on this table or are mostly glossed over in favor of unrealistic mathematical calculations which while true are more or less impracticle in a real life environment. Some of you posters need to accept the fact that some of the mathematics in this field is simple impracticle.
 

21forme

Well-Known Member
#7
You don't have to worry about being thrown out in AC. They're not permitted to do it. Worst they can do is shuffle up, make you flat bet, or put the cut card at 50%.
 

dacium

Well-Known Member
#8
Your expected win would only be a few dollars per hour. You got very lucky. Remember this next time you count for 13 hours and loose $1,000.
 

biggamejames

Well-Known Member
#10
21forme said:
You don't have to worry about being thrown out in AC. They're not permitted to do it. Worst they can do is shuffle up, make you flat bet, or put the cut card at 50%.

Is this the same for SD and DD games in AC?

Do they shuffle up on a player even those games without throwing them out of the casino?
 

21forme

Well-Known Member
#11
biggamejames said:
Is this the same for SD and DD games in AC?

Do they shuffle up on a player even those games without throwing them out of the casino?
The only SD games around are 6:5, and I've never seen a DD game in AC in recent history.

Scott-what you say is true, but IMO, it's more civilized than being asked to leave or having a knock on your hotel room door in the middle of the night.
 

moo321

Well-Known Member
#12
My understanding is that all AC games have to be dealt from a shoe, so they never deal single deck, and would have to deal DD from a shoe.
 

aslan

Well-Known Member
#15
shadroch said:
If confronted with a similar problem( people wanting to talk about the sports team whose hat you are wearing),and assuming you are male-tell them that you hate sports but its your boyfriends hat. That should end the conversation.

It sounds like you are off to a very nice start. Best of luck.
ROTFLMAO!!!!!
 

aslan

Well-Known Member
#16
Counting SOP

Kasi said:
aslan said:
This trip taught me to sit in position four or five (I prefer five) where I can count the two rounds of the deal before the dealer gets to my hand. I always wait until both rounds are dealt and then quickly figure the RC.../QUOTE]

No big deal - but I usually just cancel out 2 or 3 cards AS they are being dealt rather than waiting until all are dealt. Then, even at 1st base, I have it as soon as all are dealt.

And, if I screw up, then I can go back and count the dealt cards for a second chance, just like u do.

Try it a little bit and u'll find it just as easy.
Thanks, I will. It does sound like a good idea, especially if the only seat you can get is first or second under the gun. I'll practice what you said and see how I do.
 

aslan

Well-Known Member
#17
EasyRhino said:
Where was the third trip? If it was AC or any of the medium-brow places in vegas, I really wouldn't sweat a $50 max bet. And you won $1300 with it? That's a nice little run. For the record, $100/hr is far far better than your expected value with your bet level.

What kind of games were you playing with the 1-5 spread? If they were shoe games, I sincerely hope you were wonging as much as possible, as that spread is quite probably still a losing proposition in a play all environment.

Finally, pop quiz for you, when you were betting two hands in a "max bet" count, how much were you betting on each spot?
The third trip was AC. It was an 8-deck shoe, $10 minimum. I would gradually increase the bet as the count moved higher than the KC. When I was betting two hands I would bet four or five units altogether until the count got really high, that is Pivot Point on up. Then with such a high count I would go as high as 5 units per hand, so in effect I was betting 10X. When the next shoe began, I would only bet one hand, 1 unit ($10). When I was betting two hands with a super high count, I was fortunate to get a split with a double down, as well as straight double-downs (most of which I won)and once even two blackjacks at the same time--no kidding!!

So I can see what you are saying--I was very lucky to do so well while mostly employing a 5X spread. Also, and this ain't scientific, but I find that when you bet any game (bj, poker, slots, billiards) within what you can afford, things seem to go better. Maybe it's just your frame of mind that makes you play better. But when you disregard logical limits and try to bet big with too little bankroll, things seem to go wrong--again, maybe it's just your unconscious mind making you play bad causing bad things to happen. Maybe deep inside you feel you deserve to lose because you are taking illogical and unwarranted chances.
 

aslan

Well-Known Member
#18
biggamejames said:
Sticking to one particular spread in my opinion is an easy way to get caught.(Now i have to specify that i primarily play SD or DD not shoes) so i really have no clue as to how security or the pit works multiple decks.

But if you are betting SD or DD, and you are using one basic spread, you are very easy to spot as a counter. This is because you will have a standard increament with the count that any pit boss or security personel can very easily detect.

Not to mention, the lower your spread the longer you have to spend at the table. Hence the more hands you have to play and the more of your play you expose to those who might be watching you.

I dont see how any player, (even one with a 50$ max play) can hide from security or the pit crew. Your card counting is as plain as day light to any one watching your play.



There is really no legit advice on beating the crew...
By 5X spread I mean that I don't exceed 5X (except when I occasionally bet two hands. Actually my instinct (and poker knowledge) told me to mix it up and bet erratically at times. If I get into a winning streak when the count is way below the KC, sometimes I will bet more just to mix it up. Also, when I have been betting 5X for a while and then I start a new shoe, I might begin with the same high bet or a little lower just to dispel the notion that I only bet high when the the count is high. Also, I try to make it look like I am chasing my money when I'm betting high and the count is high. That's how I started betting two hands: I had lost a couple of bets with a high plus count, so I started betting two hands as if trying to get even. Actually I don't mind if in fact I do lose with a super high count, because I know I'm doing the smart thing and I know the odds are in my favor even if it doesn't work out in a specific situation. Also, I am careful not to bet above one unit too often when the count is poor, since I certainly don't want to use so much camo that I destroy all the advantages of counting. It's a balancing act!

I am interested how you bet when you play. What camo tricks do you use? And yes, I do have to stay at the table a long time the way I've been playing it. Is it better to play high for a short time and then get out fast? I didn't backcount because I thought that might be an easy thing to spot, but I could try this next time. Don't they get suspicious when they see you jump in betting high, then leave as soon as the shoe is done? Anyway, I am looking for ways in which I can play at the same casino over and over without arousing suspicions. I like the comps and free rooms, which I won't get if I stay in one hotel and play in another. Oh yes! another thing I did was to pocket blacks and greens. At one point I lost a several 5X bets in a row and then I went "all in" with a little over the 5X. It looked bigger than it was because I had all my $1 and $2 1/2 chips on top of a bunch of reds. I lost and I said that's all for me! The dealer said something like, "I'm sorry"! as I walked off, head down, with a pocket full of greens and blacks.
 

aslan

Well-Known Member
#19
21forme said:
You don't have to worry about being thrown out in AC. They're not permitted to do it. Worst they can do is shuffle up, make you flat bet, or put the cut card at 50%.
I had heard that, but I didn't believe it. I had a friend who was a big time counter (he's dead now). I had heard that he was barred in AC because he had such a reputation in vegas and it followed him to AC. Are there ways they can refuse you, if not outright, in some other way? Or did the rules change since he was barred years ago?
 

aslan

Well-Known Member
#20
dacium said:
Your expected win would only be a few dollars per hour. You got very lucky. Remember this next time you count for 13 hours and loose $1,000.
Exactly right! I was happy to hear the analysis in this thread, because now I will not panic if I go back and things don't go my way. But really, it is not likely that I will lose $1,000 is it? I know it may happen from time to time, but isn;t the likely outcome that I will win something, if only a little amount?
 
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