Offering advice

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#21
Kj

kewljason said:
Creepy panther on the other hand, often chastises me for what he calls sugar coating and glorifying the game in my posts. His rational is that this will lead to new players losing money that they probably can't afford to lose. He expressed this nobel desire to look out for the less informed.
KJ, my concern with you was, and is, that you mislead young players with your totally unsubstantiated posts and claims into not just losing a few hands at BJ,,,no,,,but actually giving up what could be a productive, educated, and happy secure life in the real world, to try and follow in your fairytale foot steps.

Now KJ, you brought this up with your post, I did not, so please do not send me anymore whinning PM,s about how I and others are picking on you and how you are going to leave the site:violin: :cry:

CP
 

kewljason

Well-Known Member
#23
creeping panther said:
KJ, my concern with you was, and is, that you mislead young players with your totally unsubstantiated posts and claims into not just losing a few hands at BJ,,,no,,,but actually giving up what could be a productive, educated, and happy secure life in the real world, to try and follow in your fairytale foot steps.

Now KJ, you brought this up with your post, I did not, so please do not send me anymore whinning PM,s about how I and others are picking on you and how you are going to leave the site:violin: :cry:

CP
Ok, you have made the accusation, so prove it. Show me where I ever encouraged anyone to give up an education and/or happy secure life and follow in my footsteps!

Furthermore you repeatedly state how my claims are unsubstantiated. Everyones posts are unsubstantiated. I suppose you would like access to my fianancial records ect, but guess what it doesn't work that way. This is the internet and there is a certain amount of anonymity involved. Especially with people that play this game seriously.

I did however, correspond with your expert, Kim Lee, as you asked me to via PM and shared private information with him about my game and life that I wouldn't choose to share on the public board. You didn't like his opinion though, even though he was your expert, so you choose not to accept it. I'll bet if his opinion had gone the other way, you would have jumped all over it as some kind absolute findings. :laugh:
 
#24
Kj

kewljason said:
Ok, you have made the accusation, so prove it. Show me where I ever encouraged anyone to give up an education and/or happy secure life and follow in my footsteps!

Furthermore you repeatedly state how my claims are unsubstantiated. Everyones posts are unsubstantiated. I suppose you would like access to my fianancial records ect, but guess what it doesn't work that way. This is the internet and there is a certain amount of anonymity involved. Especially with people that play this game seriously.

I did however, correspond with your expert, Kim Lee, as you asked me to via PM and shared private information with him about my game and life that I wouldn't choose to share on the public board. You didn't like his opinion though, even though he was your expert, so you choose not to accept it. I'll bet if his opinion had gone the other way, you would have jumped all over it as some kind absolute findings. :laugh:
Kim Lee, was basing his opinion on what you typed to him,,,,and that was totally unsubstantiated with no colloboration what so ever. He was totally dependent on your claims. KL was not my expert, if you recall you ran into him, on another site, and showed him great disrespect by flaming him when he was correcting a poster and his misleading claims, which we all agree now that KL was correct in making.

KL will tell you I had no part in his contact with you, something I have already told you. If you contacted him first that changes nothing as to your claims being totally unsubstantiated as fact.

As to the first paragraph, JSTAT was barred from this board for making claims as to his count being better than Hi-LO, because he would possibly mislead others into using his system, by his postings. You are doing the same with very suspect claims with no collaboration, no substantiation, enticing other young and impressionable wannabees to throw their lives away to follow in KJ's fairytale. It is clear and evident from postings that this may be happening.

I wrote of the young college student who believed all the B-S### he was reading on the boards about all the money and great life that can be had, and how he followed the B-S### and ended up killing himself after losing his college money, and how he contacted me for help and I blew him off. No way do I want to see that happen again, not if I can have any say in it. I played with a brilliant BJ Prodigy this weekend, a college senior, and you were brought up and I explained to him that if your claims were true, that was great, but that by all means he needs to get his finance degree and get a job and a life and play part time, to have the best of both worlds, because when BJ ends, he will be most thankful that he has that job, degree and skills to have a good, secure life.

Now KJ, again remember, it was you who brought this all out in public, I expressed my feelings to you in PM's so they could remain private.

Many people have expressed befuddlement as to your extreme defensivness and need to be accepted in the totality of your claims, and in your strange,,seemingly need,,, to have me accept you, being almost a compulsive disorder you exhibit. You have stated that your father threw you out of the house (I wonder for what reason?) and you lived in a shelter for your senior year while playing baseball,,,but that is not what I recall you claiming at another time........but let us not digress. If this is the case, your problems with your father, and your need for acceptance here, something you clearly never received from your father, that would explain much to me about your actions and needs for total acceptance, applause and praise and your need to embellish when needed to attain that goal. If this is indeed the situation, and I think I may be correct, then what I would say to you is that you do have my sympathy and that you can and would be accepted for who you really are,,,,BJ Pro Extraordinare, or manager at a fast food resturant.:)

Regards,
CP
 
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Sucker

Well-Known Member
#25
Getting back to the original purpose of this thread:

It's generally a bad idea for an "Advantage Player" to give advice to other players at the table, mostly because (as others have pointed out) the professional can't afford to take the chance of blowing his cover. Another reason: Suppose I tell someone not to split 10s', and then the very next hand the situation arises where I have to split them myself? Now I've drawn DOUBLE attention to myself.

However; Devils4ever, by his own admission is a recreational gambler. He is there for the ENTERTAINMENT value. For the casual gambler, blackjack is MUCH more fun when everyone at the table is socializing and having a good time. I see absolutely nothing wrong with giving (correct) advice in this situation. After all, no one has ever been kicked out of a casino simply because the pit boss thought he knew basic strategy.
 

KenSmith

Administrator
Staff member
#26
Please take your smear campaigns elsewhere as the majority of us have no interest in your petty squabbles. Further personal disputes will be deleted.
 

Deathclutch

Well-Known Member
#27
Deathclutch said:
Honestly, I'll do the same thing. If the counts low all my advice leads to taking cards. If it's high I may have a bad feeling the next card could bust them so I recommend them to stand.

I'm not their parents. If they can't even be smart to learn basic strategy then they'll get no sympathy from me.
Before this gets construed the wrong way I want to make a note. I don't go out of my way to solicit this advice. Generally speaking, I'm very quiet at a blackjack table. But if there is someone who is asking for advice and people are voicing their opinions I don't see how some advice that may help me a bit in the long run could be that bad. :laugh:

Honestly with most of these guys they'll lose their money just as quickly with or without you with the way many of them play.

Also I think that if someone has a moral issue with this they may want to think about things. This may actually be cheaper for a bad player than an AP who Wongs in since the bad players are then forced to take even more cards!! :eek: Just some food for thought guys.
 

QFIT

Well-Known Member
#28
Sucker said:
Getting back to the original purpose of this thread:

It's generally a bad idea for an "Advantage Player" to give advice to other players at the table, mostly because (as others have pointed out) the professional can't afford to take the chance of blowing his cover. Another reason: Suppose I tell someone not to split 10s', and then the very next hand the situation arises where I have to split them myself? Now I've drawn DOUBLE attention to myself.

However; Devils4ever, by his own admission is a recreational gambler. He is there for the ENTERTAINMENT value. For the casual gambler, blackjack is MUCH more fun when everyone at the table is socializing and having a good time. I see absolutely nothing wrong with giving (correct) advice in this situation. After all, no one has ever been kicked out of a casino simply because the pit boss thought he knew basic strategy.
Well put, and thank you for nudging the thread back to a useful drift.

Personally, I avoid giving advice. Giving good advice on BS is sort of okay, except that you might know it isn’t correct for the situation at hand. And, that means, if the advice is honest, you can end up giving contradictory advice as the game continues. Frankly, purposely giving bad advice stretches moral constructs beyond my willingness to do so. Particularly if you may profit. (I am not judging, merely spewing my personal feelings.) The most egregious examples are buying a double-down from someone that didn’t want to double. You actually cause him harm. Non-tournament BJ is a game against the house. This is neither tourny-BJ nor Poker where the antagonist is another player. As a parallel, hand interaction, in some situations, can be a con game. And, I do not think of myself as a conman. My focus is on winning the house’s money, not the other player’s money.

If asked, I say something akin to: “the book says ---, but who knows.” I provide a non-committal answer unlikely to result in any further requests. Gamblers like definitive answers (which are nearly always incorrect.)

Besides, I avoid anything that slows the game, or brings attention. To me, speed is of utmost importance.
 

21forme

Well-Known Member
#29
QFIT said:
Giving good advice on BS is sort of okay, except that you might know it isn’t correct for the situation at hand. And, that means, if the advice is honest, you can end up giving contradictory advice as the game continues.
That's why I avoid giving advice. Suppose your neighbor has a 12 v 3, he asks your advice, and you tell him the book says to hit. A few hands later, the count goes up a bit and you have a 12 v 3, and you stand. That's a tough one to explain to the guy, especially after he busted.
 

aslan

Well-Known Member
#30
21forme said:
That's why I avoid giving advice. Suppose your neighbor has a 12 v 3, he asks your advice, and you tell him the book says to hit. A few hands later, the count goes up a bit and you have a 12 v 3, and you stand. That's a tough one to explain to the guy, especially after he busted.
I tell them that I think the book says to hit, but it's a marginal call, so doesn't matter all that much. I tell them sometimes I hit and sometimes I don't (which is true, but I don't tell them why). Someone always seems to chime in, "Whatever you do, you should be consistent." To which I might say, "Maybe that's why I don't always win." I don't want the asking player to lose, but I realize that no matter what the advice I give, he has about a 50/50 chance of losing no matter what I say (in the case of hitting a 12 against a dealer 3).

I wouldn't feel right deliberately trying to lead someone to hit because I wanted them to "eat" cards in a negative count; that doesn't seem right, although it's not a biggie.

I generally give a disclaimer when I give advice, too. Like, "The book says hit, but it's only a percentage thing; it doesn't mean you will always win. What does your gut say?"

I try not to be too quiet at the table, because I have found that PCs pay more attention to me when I'm quiet than when I am more sociable. I guess they wonder in I am engrossed in counting cards when I am super quiet, which is often the case. So I make an effort to be sociable up to a point.
 

psyduck

Well-Known Member
#31
21forme said:
That's why I avoid giving advice. Suppose your neighbor has a 12 v 3, he asks your advice, and you tell him the book says to hit. A few hands later, the count goes up a bit and you have a 12 v 3, and you stand. That's a tough one to explain to the guy, especially after he busted.
For hands that I play differently depending on the counts such as 12 vs 2 or 16 vs 10, I say something like "it's a close call and all up to you" or "I am not sure". I think saying you don't know or not sure is much better than telling them to make a play that you know is wrong.
 

shadroch

Well-Known Member
#32
psyduck said:
For hands that I play differently depending on the counts such as 12 vs 2 or 16 vs 10, I say something like "it's a close call and all up to you" or "I am not sure". I think saying you don't know or not sure is much better than telling them to make a play that you know is wrong.


I had this happen last week, as I stood on a hand I'd advised a player to hit a few hands earlier.BS said hit, but the count was high. He asked me, and I replied that his hand contained two clubs, whereas mine was a heart and a spade. He smiled and gave me a look that showed he understood, kinda.
 

pooptarts92

Well-Known Member
#33
There's one counter buddy of mine whom I hate playing with because he ALWAYS gives people advice, even other counters. And when he loses he gets SO angry and acts like a baby. Needless to say I never play with him anymore. He even tells me to stand with 16 vs a 7, which would have been right if it were true 9 but it was about true 7.5 and he kept saying WAVE IT WAVE IT. I did and the dealer made 20, would have pushed if I hit it. The last thing I need while I'm trying to play my own game is someone constantly telling me how to play my hands.
 

Deathclutch

Well-Known Member
#34
Pooptarts, do not be results orientated and follow what YOUR count says. Don't leave any excuses out there for losses other than your play. Even that hand wasn't his fault. You lost discilpline and broke from your plan. Learn from it and become a better player.
 

pooptarts92

Well-Known Member
#35
Deathclutch said:
Pooptarts, do not be results orientated and follow what YOUR count says. Don't leave any excuses out there for losses other than your play. Even that hand wasn't his fault. You lost discilpline and broke from your plan. Learn from it and become a better player.
I know I shouldn't blame him but him nagging at me how to play my hand was aggravating, even moreso when I could have avoided losing the hand. But you're right, I should go by my count and always will, I'm a lot more disciplined than him and most other players I encounter. Such as a sick losing streak, I don't show any signs of anger, I just shake my head and joke with the dealer. Like when my double haven't been hitting, I'll call for a DEUCE on my 11's and when I actually get one we laugh about it and laugh harder when I win the hand.

All in all just avoid playing with control freaks, or just ignore them completely and don't let them ruin your concentration.
 
#37
creeping panther said:
...As to the first paragraph, JSTAT was barred from this board for making claims as to his count being better than Hi-LO, because he would possibly mislead others into using his system, by his postings. You are doing the same with very suspect claims with no collaboration, no substantiation, enticing other young and impressionable wannabees to throw their lives away to follow in KJ's fairytale. It is clear and evident from postings that this may be happening.

I wrote of the young college student who believed all the B-S### he was reading on the boards about all the money and great life that can be had, and how he followed the B-S### and ended up killing himself after losing his college money, and how he contacted me for help and I blew him off. No way do I want to see that happen again, not if I can have any say in it. I played with a brilliant BJ Prodigy this weekend, a college senior, and you were brought up and I explained to him that if your claims were true, that was great, but that by all means he needs to get his finance degree and get a job and a life and play part time, to have the best of both worlds, because when BJ ends, he will be most thankful that he has that job, degree and skills to have a good, secure life. ...
Wait a minute. The basic fact of blackjack- if you bet a lot of money when there are a lot of high cards left, you will make money.

Anyone who accepts and promulgates that fact is promoting advantage play, regardless of what else they have to say. Lots of people here have an interesting and improbable story to tell about their BJ career, and I do not hear KJ telling anyone to move into a shelter and play blackjack full-time, even though he did it. I don't tell AP's to drink at the table either, even though I do it.

Don't you assume that anyone who is intelligent enough to understand the theory of AP and implement it is intelligent enough to make these life decisions for himself?

Back to the original topic- yes, I give advice if requested and always give good advice without giving away my understanding to anything beyond basic strategy. If it's an index play, I dodge and decline. Nor would I ever give a muggle bad advice for my own benefit. The Golden Rule. Part of the challenge for any AP, in my opinion, is to ply this trade of deceit and self-interest without really giving up the kind of man that you are before you walk into the casino.
 

Blue Efficacy

Well-Known Member
#38
Automatic Monkey said:
Part of the challenge for any AP, in my opinion, is to ply this trade of deceit and self-interest without really giving up the kind of man that you are before you walk into the casino.
Problem is, APs, like anyone else, have people amongst their ranks who are bad before they even enter the casino.

I give advice obvious plays only. If asked about 10 splitting, I will often jokingly suggest they do it, even offer to go halves. We're here to gamble after all! :grin:

Players asking for advice on splits and doubles is a great opening for scavenger play, if that floats your boat.
 
#39
Am

Automatic Monkey said:
Wait a minute. The basic fact of blackjack- if you bet a lot of money when there are a lot of high cards left, you will make money.

Anyone who accepts and promulgates that fact is promoting advantage play, regardless of what else they have to say. Lots of people here have an interesting and improbable story to tell about their BJ career, and I do not hear KJ telling anyone to move into a shelter and play blackjack full-time, even though he did it. I don't tell AP's to drink at the table either, even though I do it.

Don't you assume that anyone who is intelligent enough to understand the theory of AP and implement it is intelligent enough to make these life decisions for himself?

Back to the original topic- yes, I give advice if requested and always give good advice without giving away my understanding to anything beyond basic strategy. If it's an index play, I dodge and decline. Nor would I ever give a muggle bad advice for my own benefit. The Golden Rule. Part of the challenge for any AP, in my opinion, is to ply this trade of deceit and self-interest without really giving up the kind of man that you are before you walk into the casino.
AM,

Did you read what Ken said?

Do you understand what Ken said?

In light of what Ken did say do you want to go against his wishes and start something up with me again?:grin:



CP
 
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