Online Poker
- Thread starter squeeks
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please explain your statement. It makes no sense. Illegal to transfer money for "ILLEGAL GAMES" I just said the games are illegal and you did too. The reason it is illegal to transfer money is because the poker games are illegal here in the united states online. They froze millions of dollars in fire pay, pay pal, and other sites like that, which is why most will not transfer money any more. They have also tried to get info on over seas accounts linked to US residence. The case you are talking about is based on one aspect. When gambling online, is the gambling actually taking place on your home computer or the server where the information is compiled. This has technically not been resolved as of now. However the government has the right to prosecute anyone who has transfered money, or is currently playing the game with their own money. Free money given to them by the casino does not count. The reason they do not go after the individual is becase it is much easier and more effective to go after the financial institutes.
I have researched this as well as a lawyer. We both used to play all the time online.
I have researched this as well as a lawyer. We both used to play all the time online.
1. There is no FEDERAL law banning poker.
2. If you have a STATE law that bans poker, then UIGEA also bans the transactions to play poker.
3. Sports betting is banned by federal law, so UIGEA also bans the transactions.
4. I never said online poker was illegal. It is not, and there is case law on it.
5. UIGEA merely bans transactions for "illegal" gambling. It does not define illegal gambling, so in order to be prosecuted under UIGEA, you must have violated another existing law.
https://www.library.unlv.edu/center_for_gaming_research/2008/09/what-the-proposed-uigea-regs-m.html
2. If you have a STATE law that bans poker, then UIGEA also bans the transactions to play poker.
3. Sports betting is banned by federal law, so UIGEA also bans the transactions.
4. I never said online poker was illegal. It is not, and there is case law on it.
5. UIGEA merely bans transactions for "illegal" gambling. It does not define illegal gambling, so in order to be prosecuted under UIGEA, you must have violated another existing law.
https://www.library.unlv.edu/center_for_gaming_research/2008/09/what-the-proposed-uigea-regs-m.html
Let me explain a little better. You cannot gamble(so long as a rake is taken) in the US at a home that is not licenced. Yes this is state law. Yes the gambling is illegal. The ONLY case that is still in existance is the case about whether or not online is gambling in the home, or the place that the servers are compiling the info(or the only one left with any substance to it). IT IS ILLEGAL to trasfer money to POKER SITES. I know this for a fact. I have talked with the sites, the banks, lawyers, etc. THIS IS FACT. And yes peolple can be prosecuted for playing poker at home until the courts make a ruling and decide if playing online poker is at home, or at the location of the servers. I never once said that it was a fedral law, all gambling laws are state. So even if your state allows gambling, you have to have a licence in order to play online (if a rake is taken, which it is in online poker).
I do want to add that even though gambling laws are local, the federal government does have a say so. The federal government was the ones that froze all the money comming and going to pay pal type entities. The Federal government made this law to keep tax money here in the US (I know you will need this explained, but I am not going to do it. look it up yourself, its not worth it). IT is ILLEGAL to transfer money to ANY POKER site that gambles with real money (even if the site offers no other type gambling, even if it does not have horse racing or sports betting).
You know I am done with this, putting this in a mannar to where you can understand it takes up too much of my time. Well you have the truth now. Good luck to you.
Oh and if your going to submit a link as evidence, please don't submit a blog. Submit some real evidence.
I do want to add that even though gambling laws are local, the federal government does have a say so. The federal government was the ones that froze all the money comming and going to pay pal type entities. The Federal government made this law to keep tax money here in the US (I know you will need this explained, but I am not going to do it. look it up yourself, its not worth it). IT is ILLEGAL to transfer money to ANY POKER site that gambles with real money (even if the site offers no other type gambling, even if it does not have horse racing or sports betting).
You know I am done with this, putting this in a mannar to where you can understand it takes up too much of my time. Well you have the truth now. Good luck to you.
Oh and if your going to submit a link as evidence, please don't submit a blog. Submit some real evidence.
I cited an opinion from arguably the best-known gambling attorney that completely contradicts what you're saying.
Raking a home game is quite different from playing poker online. Furthermore, I know that in my state it is only illegal to RAKE the game, not to PLAY in it.
There are only a few states that explicitly ban online poker, and only in those states is it illegal to transfer money to poker sites.
You also seem to be implying that state law regarding poker is uniform across the US, which it is not.
Raking a home game is quite different from playing poker online. Furthermore, I know that in my state it is only illegal to RAKE the game, not to PLAY in it.
There are only a few states that explicitly ban online poker, and only in those states is it illegal to transfer money to poker sites.
You also seem to be implying that state law regarding poker is uniform across the US, which it is not.
What are you talking about? There's no "truth" in law! It's all opinion!
I gave you Nelson Rose's opinion, and I'm assuming you didn't read it.
Read the text of the law:
"IN GENERAL- The term `unlawful Internet gambling' means to place, receive, or otherwise knowingly transmit a bet or wager by any means which involves the use, at least in part, of the Internet where such bet or wager is unlawful under any applicable Federal or State law in the State or Tribal lands in which the bet or wager is initiated, received, or otherwise made."
So the law says it doesn't make poker, or any other activity illegal. It is only illegal if it was already illegal (such as sports betting, which is illegal under the Wire Fraud Act from the 1960's).
Your argument seems to be that online poker is illegal because of state law, but I'm only aware of a few states that ban online poker.
CONCLUSION: If your state doesn't ban poker, it's not banned by the feds.
I gave you Nelson Rose's opinion, and I'm assuming you didn't read it.
Read the text of the law:
"IN GENERAL- The term `unlawful Internet gambling' means to place, receive, or otherwise knowingly transmit a bet or wager by any means which involves the use, at least in part, of the Internet where such bet or wager is unlawful under any applicable Federal or State law in the State or Tribal lands in which the bet or wager is initiated, received, or otherwise made."
So the law says it doesn't make poker, or any other activity illegal. It is only illegal if it was already illegal (such as sports betting, which is illegal under the Wire Fraud Act from the 1960's).
Your argument seems to be that online poker is illegal because of state law, but I'm only aware of a few states that ban online poker.
CONCLUSION: If your state doesn't ban poker, it's not banned by the feds.
I guess i dont know the laws about online poker all that well, but everything that i have heard and read is directly in line with what Moo123 has said. I dont see how it can be ILLEGAL to transfer to POKER SITES if i am still able to deposit $600 on full tilt and poker stars with my Wells Fargo card whenever i like. However, i believe a lot of things will be changing around December of this year...
I have actually talked witht the sites about that exact issue. There response was that they put no information that connects them in any way to being a poker site, and they change up the way they process Credit Card frequently. When you receive a statement, it will not say Full Tilt Poker or anything like that, it will be FTP or FT or something like that. The reason is to hide the type of site that it actually is. If you continue to use your card, eventually it will be denied, and then you might be able to use it later time. This is the reason I do not play online anymore. I went through about 10 creditcards and about 7 sites and was tired of going through the hassle of depositing money. However the government is int he process of trying to legalize, regulate, and tax online gambling (including poker). Besides, it becomes a federal matter if you win money and do not pay taxes on it.
I'm no expert, but this is what I know: most online poker sites are located, for a variety of reasons, outside the United States. Certainly, all the popular ones are. What is illegal is to transfer funds to these; the federal government has jurisdiction over this sort of stuff.
Now, if you find an online poker site which is located in your state, and your bank is in your state, then your money never crosses a state or national border, and only state law governs the transaction. Of course, most states that house online poker sites also have made specific rules against it.
For all practical purposes, online poker cannot be played in the United States. But poker hasn't been made illegal, only money transfers. If you have an active account on a site, you can continue to play for money - money which you will never be able to cash out unless you go claim it in person. If you don't have money in a site, you can still continue to play for free.
Now, if you find an online poker site which is located in your state, and your bank is in your state, then your money never crosses a state or national border, and only state law governs the transaction. Of course, most states that house online poker sites also have made specific rules against it.
For all practical purposes, online poker cannot be played in the United States. But poker hasn't been made illegal, only money transfers. If you have an active account on a site, you can continue to play for money - money which you will never be able to cash out unless you go claim it in person. If you don't have money in a site, you can still continue to play for free.
First of all, you should specify whether you're playing limit, pot-limit, or no-limit. Secondly, you should specify whether you're playing Texas Hold'Em, Omaha, Lowball, etc. Finally, you should mention the stakes you're playing.
I'll assume you're playing no-limit Texas Hold'Em (NLHE), microstakes.
My first recommendation is that you switch to playing limit (LHE). It's simpler in terms of learning basic strategy, and you have fewer intangible elements such as "reading" an opponent and bluffing.
Start with just about any basic book on poker. Even "Texas Hold'Em for Dummies" isn't bad. I recommend this book by David Sklansky for beginners: Hold'Em Poker.
Crash course:
(1) Players are judged on two criteria: how many hands you play (lots = "loose", few = "tight") and how often you bet/raise ("aggressive") vs. check/call ("passive"). You want to be tight and aggressive - play few hands, but push your advantage whenever you have it. Most players are loose (play way too many hands) and passive (don't make the most of their wins).
(2) There are four types of cards you want to see pre-flop: high cards (which make high pairs), suited cards (which complete flushes), cards close in value (which complete straights), and paired cards. Obviously, the premium hands are ones that fall into multiple categories: high, paired cards (AA, KK, QQ) and high, suited connectors (AK suited, KQ suited, AQ suited) are premium hands. Lower paired cards (88, 77) and lower suited connectors (T9 suited, 98 suited, 87 suited) are decent hands. Sticking to these hands, you'll play maybe 20-30% of all hands you see. If you're playing 50%, you're probably overvaluing your hands.
(3) Position matters a lot. When you are on the button (last to act), you get to see what everyone does in front of your. When you are first to act (right after the BB preflop or in the SB postflop), you have no idea what's going to happen behind you. You should only play premium hands from early position (first 3 after the BB), a few more from middle position (next 3), and quite a few from late position (last 2). Preflop, treat the blinds as middle-late position but postflop they are early position. Obviously, play any two cards from the BB if you don't need to put in more money.
(4) After the flop, you will need to re-evaluate your hand in light of the cards you now see. Your AdAc in light of a KhQhJh flop has a very different value than your AdAc in light of a Kh8c2s. In the first case, you are very vulnerable to people with flushes, straights, or even two pair such as KQ or KJ. In the second case, your hand is nearly invulnerable. There are too many cases to go through, so here's some general guidelines.
(4a) You probably don't have the best hand. If you don't have a strong hand, you're probably behind. But you could make a strong hand if certain cards come up on the turn or river - these are called "outs". 4 to a flush, 4 to a straight, overcards, 3 to a flush, 3 to a straight all give a certain number of outs. The key to evaluating outs is to compare the size of the pot to the size of your bet - if you have a 1/4 chance of winning 5x your bet, that's good. You'll lose 75% of the time, but you'll win in the long run. If you have a 1/4 chance of winning 3x your bet, that's bad. You'll still lose 75% of the time, but you won't make enough the times you do win to make up for your losses. Playing limit makes it pretty easy to calculate this, as the bets are standardized. Just keep track of how many bets go into the pot and you don't even need to know the numerical value (for example, if 8 people see the flop, and 4 people call a flop bet, then there are 12 small bets in the pot; if you win the hand you will win 12x your bet).
(4b) You probably do have the best hand. Where this line falls is a little dicey, but it's somewhere between top pair (you matched the highest card on the board) and middle pair (you matched the middle card on the board). Certainly, if you flop two pair (both of your cards match two board cards) or better, you likely have the best hand. Play these aggressively - bet and raise at any opportunity. You'll get burned often, but in the long run you'll win.
(5) At low stakes, the games are generally filled with loose-passives and loose-aggressives. This means that most hands go all the way to showdown and you will need the best hand in order to win the pot. Bluffing is useless, slowplaying is useless, and check-raising is almost useless. This is GOOD for beginners, as it means you have fewer things to worry about. Move to NL and/or higher stakes (and add advanced techniques) as you build confidence. Don't get pissed off when bad players "suck out" on you. If they're calling your top pair flop raise with gutshot straight draws, they're losing money in the long run because they'll lose very often and not win enough when they win to make up for it.
I'll assume you're playing no-limit Texas Hold'Em (NLHE), microstakes.
My first recommendation is that you switch to playing limit (LHE). It's simpler in terms of learning basic strategy, and you have fewer intangible elements such as "reading" an opponent and bluffing.
Start with just about any basic book on poker. Even "Texas Hold'Em for Dummies" isn't bad. I recommend this book by David Sklansky for beginners: Hold'Em Poker.
Crash course:
(1) Players are judged on two criteria: how many hands you play (lots = "loose", few = "tight") and how often you bet/raise ("aggressive") vs. check/call ("passive"). You want to be tight and aggressive - play few hands, but push your advantage whenever you have it. Most players are loose (play way too many hands) and passive (don't make the most of their wins).
(2) There are four types of cards you want to see pre-flop: high cards (which make high pairs), suited cards (which complete flushes), cards close in value (which complete straights), and paired cards. Obviously, the premium hands are ones that fall into multiple categories: high, paired cards (AA, KK, QQ) and high, suited connectors (AK suited, KQ suited, AQ suited) are premium hands. Lower paired cards (88, 77) and lower suited connectors (T9 suited, 98 suited, 87 suited) are decent hands. Sticking to these hands, you'll play maybe 20-30% of all hands you see. If you're playing 50%, you're probably overvaluing your hands.
(3) Position matters a lot. When you are on the button (last to act), you get to see what everyone does in front of your. When you are first to act (right after the BB preflop or in the SB postflop), you have no idea what's going to happen behind you. You should only play premium hands from early position (first 3 after the BB), a few more from middle position (next 3), and quite a few from late position (last 2). Preflop, treat the blinds as middle-late position but postflop they are early position. Obviously, play any two cards from the BB if you don't need to put in more money.
(4) After the flop, you will need to re-evaluate your hand in light of the cards you now see. Your AdAc in light of a KhQhJh flop has a very different value than your AdAc in light of a Kh8c2s. In the first case, you are very vulnerable to people with flushes, straights, or even two pair such as KQ or KJ. In the second case, your hand is nearly invulnerable. There are too many cases to go through, so here's some general guidelines.
(4a) You probably don't have the best hand. If you don't have a strong hand, you're probably behind. But you could make a strong hand if certain cards come up on the turn or river - these are called "outs". 4 to a flush, 4 to a straight, overcards, 3 to a flush, 3 to a straight all give a certain number of outs. The key to evaluating outs is to compare the size of the pot to the size of your bet - if you have a 1/4 chance of winning 5x your bet, that's good. You'll lose 75% of the time, but you'll win in the long run. If you have a 1/4 chance of winning 3x your bet, that's bad. You'll still lose 75% of the time, but you won't make enough the times you do win to make up for your losses. Playing limit makes it pretty easy to calculate this, as the bets are standardized. Just keep track of how many bets go into the pot and you don't even need to know the numerical value (for example, if 8 people see the flop, and 4 people call a flop bet, then there are 12 small bets in the pot; if you win the hand you will win 12x your bet).
(4b) You probably do have the best hand. Where this line falls is a little dicey, but it's somewhere between top pair (you matched the highest card on the board) and middle pair (you matched the middle card on the board). Certainly, if you flop two pair (both of your cards match two board cards) or better, you likely have the best hand. Play these aggressively - bet and raise at any opportunity. You'll get burned often, but in the long run you'll win.
(5) At low stakes, the games are generally filled with loose-passives and loose-aggressives. This means that most hands go all the way to showdown and you will need the best hand in order to win the pot. Bluffing is useless, slowplaying is useless, and check-raising is almost useless. This is GOOD for beginners, as it means you have fewer things to worry about. Move to NL and/or higher stakes (and add advanced techniques) as you build confidence. Don't get pissed off when bad players "suck out" on you. If they're calling your top pair flop raise with gutshot straight draws, they're losing money in the long run because they'll lose very often and not win enough when they win to make up for it.
your are correct in the fact that it is illegal to transfer money to a poker site. you can still collect the money from the casinos through a check and some will even still deposit into your account if your bank will allow you. You can play online as much as you want, but you are correct it is not illegal until you try to get some money from the sight. The entire purpose for these laws are so that the government can keep taxes in casinos here in the US.
Technically you are not playing for money until you try to recieve money. If you put money in and win and never collect, you mearly payed for the fun of playing.
Technically you are not playing for money until you try to recieve money. If you put money in and win and never collect, you mearly payed for the fun of playing.
So, your response is to act like a child, and not respond to any of the evidence that I gave you, including an opinion by an expert in gaming law, and the text of the law itself?
And, in addition you want to continue to spread misinformation regarding online poker, which keeps fish away from the games, causing them to deteriorate?
Let me know if you have prepared a response that cites ANY sort of evidence.
And, in addition you want to continue to spread misinformation regarding online poker, which keeps fish away from the games, causing them to deteriorate?
Let me know if you have prepared a response that cites ANY sort of evidence.
I have to politely disagree with this. There is soo much more money to be made playing No-Limit. Although Limit may be easier to get started with (maybe thats the reasoning behind your recommendation), No-Limit allows your opponent the opportunity to make a mistake and lose his/her entire stack where as in limit they might only lose an extra couple Big Bets. Limit is also a dieing game online IMO.
Yes, but to my knowledge, gambling in general is made illegal - it has to be specifically authorized to be legal, not specifically banned to be illegal.
That is the entirety of the reasoning behind my recommendation - after he learns LHE, he can move to NLHE or stay with LHE as he sees fit. Sorry, I didn't mean to imply he should only play LHE forever.
That is the entirety of the reasoning behind my recommendation - after he learns LHE, he can move to NLHE or stay with LHE as he sees fit. Sorry, I didn't mean to imply he should only play LHE forever.
No the problem is you can't reason with some people, so I just don't argue with them. I am will admit I did write that to get under your skin. I apologize(probably the dumbest thing I have ever posted), but I am not arguing about an issue I know first hand and have discussed with a lawyer, multiple poker sites, and researched for myself.
The UIGEA explicitly states that it does not make anything illegal that is not already illegal. It's a very weird law, but technically it is only illegal to transfer money for already illegal gambling. And poker is not currently illegal under federal law.
Sports betting is illegal by existing federal law, so it's illegal to transfer money for that. To my knowledge, every single prosecution under UIGEA has been for sports betting, not poker or casino games.
Sports betting is illegal by existing federal law, so it's illegal to transfer money for that. To my knowledge, every single prosecution under UIGEA has been for sports betting, not poker or casino games.
Ok so basically what you are saying is that banks across America will not allow transfers of money to poker sites (Only poker) because they don't feel like it, or they don't want to, but not because it is illegal?(well at least the 10 I use that eventually denied my card for transfer and I called a couple of them up and they said it was illegal) And your saying that the 5 different poker sites that I talked to say it is banned int he US and that the "FEDERAL GOVERNMENT" is in the process of legalizing and regulating online poker? (I know for a fact the US government is doing this) Why would the Fed goverment legalize it if it were not allready leagal? Basically what I get out of everything is that Some of the smartest people in the world and all the bank CEOs and owners of the poker sites are not smart enough to discover what you have discovered, or they are all lying which in turn is giving them less revenue. These are facts. I have first hand knowledge of these. And also the US FEDERAL GOV. did freeze millions of dollars transfered to poker sites to stop the gambling. They did this to prove a point and put many companies out of business. The above in undisputable, but I am proud that you found what no other Harvard, Yale, or West Point graduate cound never find. Still doesn't change anything because the Harvard, Yale and West point graduates don't believe you, nor I.