Players Card - When/Where/How much?

[ARK]

After a month of practicing at home, I'm just started counting in the Chicago area. Every table I sit at I'm immediately asked if I have a players card. In several casinos where I (truthfully) said no, I was immediately offered a card. Just to gauge reactions I declined yesterday and got some pretty skeptical reactions from the dealer and other players.

Based on this I have a few questions. Keeping in mind that for now I'm referring to "home" casinos that I'd like to play at least once a month, but general advice is appreciated too.

1) Should a low stakes,$10-$15 dollar tables, player always play rated under their own name? If not, how often?

2) Are you hurting yourself by continually playing rated at lower stakes? (i.e. is it better to wait until the $25 level for better comps while not establishing a pattern of winning blackjack play)

3) At what point is it worthwhile to obtain new players cards under other names? Is this even useful in local casinos where you will be somewhat of a regular? Note that I'm not a regular at these casinos yet.

ARK

 

[Lonesome Gambler]

Excellent questions for a beginner. You'll receive differing opinions on these, but the fact that you're thinking about one of the most coomon potential pitfalls for new players (establishing winning play and risking exposure in exchange for comps when starting out) is a good thing.

Personally, I generally play rated at "home" casinos. I feel that I can afford to be less aggressive and also avoid the scrutiny of playing unrated at places that I'll be playing regularly. The comps are just extra.

Of course, proper player's card management is important. Get creative and figure out ways to have your account show a net loss even when you're well in the black.

 

[shadroch]

A low stakes $10-$15 player should always play rated. You are not a big enough threat to the casino to worry about, and the occasional free meals, shows and rooms will add to your EV tremendously.
Learn how to pocket a few chips and make your meager wins look like losses.

One concern about playing with two or more cards is will you be able to take advantage of the offers you get from the second card. If they send your second card a promo for a free room and two show tix, will you be able to provide the id needed to collect?

 

[tallmanvegas]

A low stakes $10-$15 player should always play rated. You are not a big enough threat to the casino to worry about, and the occasional free meals, shows and rooms will add to your EV tremendously.
Learn how to pocket a few chips and make your meager wins look like losses.

One concern about playing with two or more cards is will you be able to take advantage of the offers you get from the second card. If they send your second card a promo for a free room and two show tix, will you be able to provide the id needed to collect?

Good point

 

[Lowrider]

Unless you play very infrequently with a ridiculously high spread, you should ALWAYS play rated in your home casinos. Chances are they know you anyway. You are giving up lucrative comps. Also, to be a regular and not play rated raises bigtime flags.

 

[tallmanvegas]

Unless you play very infrequently with a ridiculously high spread, you should ALWAYS play rated in your home casinos. Chances are they know you anyway. You are giving up lucrative comps. Also, to be a regular and not play rated raises bigtime flags.

When i was playing multiple times a week at my local "hole", even though i was using my players card and they knew me, i never received anything from them, not even a free crappy buffet. So now, no card, and its been couple years since ive been back with new staff there
Tallman

 

[pieinthesky]

Playing rated

If you don't ask, you don't get.

 

[EmeraldCityBJ]

I suggest that you avoid playing rated when practical. The casinos only want your information so they can use it against you. With a name or account number, they can more easily link sessions together and track lifetime results compared to having to keep track of you based on only a physical description. When you eventually get backed off, they have more damaging information which can potentially get sent elsewhere in a database or a flyer.

When playing low stakes, it might seem easy to justify getting a player's card. The free meals or the coupons in the mail (typically worth $10 in EV or less) might seem like a good chunk of your total return. Since you're playing low stakes, your may not be betting big enough for them to worry, giving you a false sense of security. If you grow your bankroll and raise your stakes later on, the meals and $10 coupons will become less significant to your overall EV, and at some point, you'll hit a betting level that they will start to sweat.

While I generally advocate anonymous play, I have a few exceptions to my rule. These include:

1. The casino is your home base, and you play there often enough that their tracking of your play is going to be reasonably accurate even if you are playing anonymous. At some places, your longevity can be based on how much work you create for the pit. If you make their work harder, or are generally unpleasant to be around, it will give them more incentive to get rid of you sooner. Even if you play rated on these grounds, you should consider which other casinos (if any) this casino shares information with.
2. The casino has an unusually generous comp/cash back system. If you're only getting $10 a month, that's less than 30-minutes of EV for even the smallest stakes AP I can imagine, and it's not worth giving up your information. However, if the benefits are worth several hours of EV, and you're able to get enough play in to get these offers, it's worth considering. I should point out that benefits at this level are exceptionally rare. Of the hundreds of casinos I've visited, I only know of one that has offers good enough to even consider playing rated.
3. You're out of town, and need one place to use comps for a room and meals. If you're visiting a place that has several casinos, you can choose one of them to either play VP or use a polite spread on BJ to trigger room offers for future trips. If you do this, don't pick the place that has the best BJ game, and make sure that the place you choose doesn't share info with the places you intend to get your EV. I have used this approach in Vegas and Reno, and currently have standing offers from a couple properties in each venue. However, I often question whether it was worth it. It takes me less than one hour on a decent game to get enough EV to pay for a room. To get the room comp'd requires several hours of negative/neutral EV play. In addition to the losses taken playing for comps, there is also a cost associated with not spending that same time playing a positive EV game elsewhere.

 

[Lonesome Gambler]

Man, EmeraldCityBJ hit this one on the head. I was just coming in to add my $0.02 (or $0.05 theo) to the whole "comps are valuable EV at low stakes" theme, but he said it very nicely. Still, I'll put it in my own terms for posterity.

When you're a low-stakes player, your win-rate will probably be very small, so it's easy to see small comps as a strong boost to EV. A $25 matchplay every two weeks and some free meals can add up to somewhere in the neighborhood of 5 hours worth of EV each month, if not more. But this boost to your win-rate is only a true boost if you intend to play at low stakes permanently because the cost of prolonged exposure at a place that you intend to play for higher stakes later is far, far greater than the gain from low-stakes comps.

Even if you're able to rathole a ton, the casino will have plenty of time to know you. They'll eventually see that you're playing perfect basic strategy with the appropriate count-based deviations. They notice that your bets have a strong correlation to the count. Even if you manage to be in the red on paper, do you think the casino will care if they know you're playing a winning game? And even if they don't mind that you're extracting $10/hr or so from them, what happens when you move up and start betting quarters? Since you're so well-known there, they may get curious.

So don't be fooled into thinking that you need comps as a low-stakes player. It may be valuable to play rated at your home casino simply because it will make the pit feel better. But that's the primary value in my opinion—not comps. Playing rated for low stakes when on the road is a big mistake, if you ask me.

Semi-unrelated note: I was practicing my palming technique the other day and kept ratholing as I continued to practice. I got a little carried away, and I'm not even going to say how much I ended up with in my pockets!

 

[shadroch]

Have you ever seen a PB hoovering over a table watching a $10 bet?
The casino is going to know two, maybe three things about you. How often you play, how much you buy in for, your average bet( which is almost always the average of your first three or four bets), and how much or little you colored up for. Unless you are using RFID chips, the casino will hardly waste its resources tracking your play. How are they going to see your perfect deviation from basic strategy.do you think the security people review tapes of $10 players looking for patterns?
More importantly, and perhaps most importantly- there is a huge disconnect between the gambling side and the marketing side. Its the marketing comps that make the difference.
If you can't make the comps you get work for you, you are wasting a good deal of your possible EV.

 

[ARK]

Have you ever seen a PB hoovering over a table watching a $10 bet?
The casino is going to know two, maybe three things about you. How often you play, how much you buy in for, your average bet( which is almost always the average of your first three or four bets), and how much or little you colored up for. Unless you are using RFID chips, the casino will hardly waste its resources tracking your play. How are they going to see your perfect deviation from basic strategy.do you think the security people review tapes of $10 players looking for patterns?
More importantly, and perhaps most importantly- there is a huge disconnect between the gambling side and the marketing side. Its the marketing comps that make the difference.
If you can't make the comps you get work for you, you are wasting a good deal of your possible EV.

I agree that it seems really unlikely that anyone analyze my play at a 10 dollar table very thoroughly, especially if I'm able to rathole effectively.

My concern was what happens once I'm able to move up to the $25 stakes. Will a substantial amount of previous play trigger more heat/analysis once the bets start getting bigger? Or am I overthinking things?

 

[blackjackomaha]

I agree that it seems really unlikely that anyone analyze my play at a 10 dollar table very thoroughly, especially if I'm able to rathole effectively.

My concern was what happens once I'm able to move up to the $25 stakes. Will a substantial amount of previous play trigger more heat/analysis once the bets start getting bigger? Or am I overthinking things?

As a green chipper, it has been my experience that heat is camo/cover dependent. You can still play chunky green without much heat, it if is done right. I avoid larger chips because that's when the pit needs to pay closer attention - it is their job to know exactly who has any black and higher denomination chips.

Also, spend time determining which are the "best" dealers and floor personnel.

 

[Lonesome Gambler]

I think ARK's point is moving up in stakes, which I mentioned briefly in my post. I do feel that dramatically increasing stakes after establishing a long history of table min betting can potentially increase interest in your game. And it's pretty easy to look at your playing history and do a tape review based on your player card info at that point--it doesn't matter if they had been sweating your game previously. There's not much you can do at that point because you've already established many hours of low-stakes, +EV play,

 

[tthree]

As a green chipper, it has been my experience that heat is camo/cover dependent. You can still play chunky green without much heat, it if is done right. I avoid larger chips because that's when the pit needs to pay closer attention - it is their job to know exactly who has any black and higher denomination chips.

Also, spend time determining which are the "best" dealers and floor personnel.

A good point here is the downside of ratholing. The pit nows were bigger chip denominations go and must balance the chips with buy ins and color ups. They count the chips periodically and assign missing amounts to a player. If you are ever caught ratholing you almost always get assigned the missing chips if you were playing at that table. The net result is you show much higher wins not loses because you are credited for chips you don't have. You must be smart about ratholing if you do it. There are eyes you don't see. The dealer is the one you have to be most concerned about. He is responsible for knowing were the chips went.

 

[ARK]

Man, EmeraldCityBJ hit this one on the head. I was just coming in to add my $0.02 (or $0.05 theo) to the whole "comps are valuable EV at low stakes" theme, but he said it very nicely. Still, I'll put it in my own terms for posterity.

When you're a low-stakes player, your win-rate will probably be very small, so it's easy to see small comps as a strong boost to EV. A $25 matchplay every two weeks and some free meals can add up to somewhere in the neighborhood of 5 hours worth of EV each month, if not more. But this boost to your win-rate is only a true boost if you intend to play at low stakes permanently because the cost of prolonged exposure at a place that you intend to play for higher stakes later is far, far greater than the gain from low-stakes comps.

Even if you're able to rathole a ton, the casino will have plenty of time to know you. They'll eventually see that you're playing perfect basic strategy with the appropriate count-based deviations. They notice that your bets have a strong correlation to the count. Even if you manage to be in the red on paper, do you think the casino will care if they know you're playing a winning game? And even if they don't mind that you're extracting $10/hr or so from them, what happens when you move up and start betting quarters? Since you're so well-known there, they may get curious.

So don't be fooled into thinking that you need comps as a low-stakes player. It may be valuable to play rated at your home casino simply because it will make the pit feel better. But that's the primary value in my opinion—not comps. Playing rated for low stakes when on the road is a big mistake, if you ask me.

Semi-unrelated note: I was practicing my palming technique the other day and kept ratholing as I continued to practice. I got a little carried away, and I'm not even going to say how much I ended up with in my pockets!

LG - You have hit my concerns right on the head. My goal is not to permanently grind low-stakes but rather use it as a spring board to green chip play as quickly as safely possible.

My bankroll situation:
- Starting bankroll - 15k
- I have a full-time job which will let me add an average of 1.5k/month to my bankroll.
- Blackjack play - Not sure what I can expect to fit in. Should be able to do 3 trips a week and some of the Chicago casinos are close enough that you can visit more than one per day without much travel. Maybe 10-20 hours a week in play?

My plan was to spend 6-12 months (depending on BR fluctuations) grinding low stakes while simultaneously contributing via my job. The goal is to a roll/stakes that allow for about $50 an hour within a year.

1) Does that seem reasonable plan or too aggressive?
2) Would it be worthwhile to avoid at least some rated play during this time? Since I'm basically staying within an hour of home I'm not sure if the comps are quite as helpful, unless they start giving out gas vouchers...

 

[shadroch]

If you play rated now,there is nothing to stop you from playing unrated later.
Anyone who believes that a casino is going to go backs months, let alone weeks, to review a $10 players table play to determine if he's an Ap is paranoid. Many smaller casinos still use tapes, which cannot be time synched very easily, and the ones that have switched to dvds don't keep them all that long.
About three years ago, a person I've met a few times had a run in at a 3CP table with another patron. Security was called and the guy was removed. About two months later, the second guy saw my aquaintence outside a bar and beat him silly. He told the cops the date and time the incident at the casino occured, but the tapes had already been erased.
Do you really think there is a master file somewhere that has footage of every table 24 hours a day for the past few months? supposing there was, do the casinos have guys doing nothing but searching old footage for imagined APs?

 

[Gamblor]

If you play rated now,there is nothing to stop you from playing unrated later.
Anyone who believes that a casino is going to go backs months, let alone weeks, to review a $10 players table play to determine if he's an Ap is paranoid. Many smaller casinos still use tapes, which cannot be time synched very easily, and the ones that have switched to dvds don't keep them all that long.

Furthermore it would be expensive to store tape in any media. Rest assured the bean counters are on our side on this one.

 

[alwayssplitaces]

Furthermore it would be expensive to store tape in any media. Rest assured the bean counters are on our side on this one.

Hard drive prices are falling every year. You can get a 2 terabyte drive for less than $100 now. 2 terabytes can hold 1000 hours of video.

Just a few years from now it'll be inexpensive to store video footage for a whole year. The only hurdle would be searching all the footage for an anonymous player who won $1000 in an hour sometime 2 months ago.

 

[Wookets]

The only hurdle would be searching all the footage for an anonymous player who won $1000 in an hour sometime 2 months ago.

I suspect a task like this would eat up a lot of time and resources.

 

[Lonesome Gambler]

The only hurdle would be searching all the footage for an anonymous player who won $1000 in an hour sometime 2 months ago.

I suspect a task like this would eat up a lot of time and resources.

Exactly.