Playing a shoe in progress

[countmein]

How many of you advise playing a shoe that is in progress? Wong says you just consider the cards that have already been dealt as cards that have not been dealt.

I'm wondering how much affect this has on the true count. I mean, those cards that were already dealt can never come out again, so to me it seems that your true count is skewed and your advantage must be less.

Thoughts?

 

[rukus]

How many of you advise playing a shoe that is in progress? Wong says you just consider the cards that have already been dealt as cards that have not been dealt.

I'm wondering how much affect this has on the true count. I mean, those cards that were already dealt can never come out again, so to me it seems that your true count is skewed and your advantage must be less.

Thoughts?

it has the exact same effect as playing a game with shallow penetration.
ie if you are playing a 4.5/6D game and 1.5D have already been played but not counted by you, you will at most see ~3D. this is playing a 50% pen 6D game, something most straight counters would not recommend.
it may be something to use on random occasions when walking through a casino floor on the way from one place to another, but not something that should be used as a steady strategy.

 

[aslan]

it has the exact same effect as playing a game with shallow penetration.
ie if you are playing a 4.5/6D game and 1.5D have already been played but not counted by you, you will at most see ~3D. this is playing a 50% pen 6D game, something most straight counters would not recommend.
it may be something to use on random occasions when walking through a casino floor on the way from one place to another, but not something that should be used as a steady strategy.

Right. Whatever cards have been dealt are just as if the pen was that much less. I occasionally jump into a game, especially when seats are hard to get, and just begin the count from there. I try not to do this if many cards have already been dealt, but you never know when the cards will suddenly shoot up into positive territory. If you're like me, you can't help counting anyway; it just happens naturally every time you sit down.

 

[countmein]

Makes sense. I suppose that's what you need to do in order to get to a table on a busy night. Thanks for your responses!

 

[rukus]

Makes sense. I suppose that's what you need to do in order to get to a table on a busy night. Thanks for your responses!

just dont forget, if you play games with worse pen you either need to wong more aggressively or up your spread..

 

[Nynefingers]

Just imagine that everything already dealt and in the discard tray is inserted into the shoe behind the cut card when you sit down. Don't forget to account for this when you do your TC conversion. For example, if two decks were already dealt when you sat down, then when there are 3 decks in the tray, you should be dividing by 5, not 3 (assuming a 6 deck shoe).

 

[21forme]

Only time I'll jump into a game in progress is if I'm walking by and there's a significant excess of low cards on the felt and less than 1D has been dealt. I never join a game in progress and start with a 0 RC.

 

[aslan]

Only time I'll jump into a game in progress is if I'm walking by and there's a significant excess of low cards on the felt and less than 1D has been dealt. I never join a game in progress and start with a 0 RC.

Sometimes I would never get a place at the table if I did that. If only a half deck or less has been played and the pen is good, I am not at a loss because the pen will make up for what I missed. If I can add the missed cards mentally behind the cut card and the pen is still good, it's the same as starting with the adjusted pen.

I would make an exception if all high cards were on the table for the last hand dealt, because then I would be starting at a loss, but if the count on the table is near even, that becomes part of my count.

When the house is keeping tables full, you have to decide whether you want to play at all. If you do want to play, you can't always be that choosy.

Another strategy is to get in toward the end of the shoe. In this way it is easy enough to diddle around while the deal goes on and the cards run out, or else just say to the dealer, "I'll wait until the next shoe."

Knowing you, 21forme, you probably would not much be interested in playing when tables are full in the first place, and I honor that. Me, I like to play, and I am willing to find one excuse after another to wong out of bad counts. I figure I'm not driving 3 and 1/2 hours to play VP. Different strokes.

The ideal situation, of course, is when the tables are not full, mid shoe entry is permitted, and you can wong in with two or three hands at a positive count! If you hit big, you can chalk it up for the evening, because your work is done! And you don't have to worry about how large your spread is--it's whatever your bankroll can afford! Talk about ideal situations!

 

[21forme]

Knowing you, 21forme, you probably would not much be interested in playing when tables are full in the first place, and I honor that. Me, I like to play, and I am willing to find one excuse after another to wong out of bad counts. I figure I'm not driving 3 and 1/2 hours to play VP. Different strokes.

You're right about that Aslan. If I have to play a full table, I do, but that doesn't happen often. My drive is less than an hour, so I can be pickier . If the tables are full, I simply walk to another casino

 

[itakeyourmoney]

I'm not sure what the etiquette is like at other casinos, but at my local joint I regularly see people sit down at a table and if asked just say they want to wait until the end of the shoe. Even on busy nights this is not frowned upon, people simply think it's supersticious.

 

[Bondy3]

I'm not sure what the etiquette is like at other casinos, but at my local joint I regularly see people sit down at a table and if asked just say they want to wait until the end of the shoe. Even on busy nights this is not frowned upon, people simply think it's supersticious.

this happens at every casino I have been to.

same thing as when someone is playing heads up and someone else sits down the person who is already playing had the right to ask for them to wait till the next shoe

 

[paddywhack]

In the store I most frequent, people think nothing about jumping into a shoe in progress without asking although some do. Most times I could care less.

I usually wait until the next shoe to join as they has mid-shoe entry stuck at table minimum anyway so I just sit back and count from there. If it gets good I may jump in if it's okay with the others.

However, last night, end of the shoe, TC is >8, I have max bet out and a kid sits down and antes up without asking if it was okay to join. He graciously pulled out when I asked if he would wait until the next shoe, probably only one or two hands. Worked out well for me, two naturals with max bet in a row. He'd have gotten the first one for sure but he was happy for me, so was I.

That was the icing on an already frosted cake for the evening.

paddywhack

 

[QFIT]

There are other people in the casino?

Seriously, you are there to make money. Do they own the table and all of the seats? Is there a reserved sign?

 

[Blue Efficacy]

One casino I like to play at has a rule in their "house rules" to the effect of "players may not disallow new players from entering an active shoe."

 

[Nynefingers]

One casino I like to play at has a rule in their "house rules" to the effect of "players may not disallow new players from entering an active shoe."

I don't necessarily have any "authority" at the places I play to disallow new players, but I find that, like paddywhack said, they generally don't mind. I just ask nicely, and since I only ask when I have my big bets out, they usually don't mind waiting, even if there is half a shoe left. Many ask before sitting down, but even those who don't ask usually will accommodate my request. If not, no worries. It was worth a try.

Also, Qfit, I agree with your philosophy in general, but this is a clear case where we can influence the other people in the casino for our benefit. Of course, I never ask before joining a game if the count is good. I don't care much what they think of me, just how I can influence them to my advantage.