playing for comps vs not

[KimLee]

Played just over two hours of 100 play Jacks or Better at The Four Queens.

Good illustration.

Wait. Two hours of 100-play, five coin, at 400 hands per hour is 400,000 coins through. You deserve a comp!

In my experience the dollar 100-play is slow because there are too many handpays. At $500 per spin, a dealt two pair will pay $1000 plus a bunch of full houses, which puts you over the $1200 threshold.

 

[Automatic Monkey]

I am definately not talking about down grading to a roach motel, automonk. :laugh: What next, sleeping in your car? pitching a tent on the beach? or bunking with the under the boardwalk crowd or the drain/sewer people in vegas? :laugh: I was more thinking that standard rooms at casino hotels like Bally's and showboat only go for $39 and $49 on weekenights (september-may) My thoughts were playing a reduced spread and subsequently reduced profits and/or playing some neg EV games would actually cost more than playing full spread anonymously and paying cash.

Why, what's wrong with a roacher? I used to stay in the Rt. 30 places all the time before I earned my stripes in AC. One of them was unbelievably pleasant and comfortable, forgot which one though.

You're right that with your schedule you might be better off paying cash in LV, all depends on what/where/how much you play. Being I play a lot of exotic stuff I can usually get away with being rated. But... if you're going to pay cash, a penny saved is a penny earned, right?

Your thoughts about picking one place that you play rated a little for comps is actually what I have done in AC for a number of years. I have one store on the boardwalk that has mediocre BJ rules that I play rated and stay at, but play unrated in the marina district where most of my play takes place. I guess maybe I should stick to that plan. My comps at the boardwalk place have recently dried up as I guess I no longer play frequently enough to warrent summertime freebies there. I'm sure it won't take to much to get back on board tho.

I'm Diamond at the HET stores so that settles that, and I can usually get a free night or two at any property other than the Borgata, which is where I play the least. If I happen to be playing a HET store outside of AC I'm very careful about my card and play because I don't want to lose those benefits in AC. But last time in AC they stuck me in the pesthole Claridge.

 

[21forme]

Your thoughts about picking one place that you play rated a little for comps is actually what I have done in AC for a number of years. I have one store on the boardwalk that has mediocre BJ rules that I play rated and stay at, but play unrated in the marina district where most of my play takes place. I guess maybe I should stick to that plan. My comps at the boardwalk place have recently dried up as I guess I no longer play frequently enough to warrent summertime freebies there. I'm sure it won't take to much to get back on board tho.

Play rated from time to time at the Borg. Confine it to your least played shift, so people don't recognize you as sometimes using a card and sometimes not. They have the nicest rooms and if you pick up a Borg hottie, you'll have somewhere close to go :grin:

There's a BIG disconnect between marketing and games there. I still get room offers for names that were half-shoed 3+ years ago.

 

[zengrifter]

I know some AP's like Kim Lee and Shadroch consider comps a major part of their advantage play compensation, while others just want to eliminate or reduce expenses.

Comps are important. Refusal looks funny. zg

 

[blackjack avenger]

Point of View

You seem unfamiliar with multiline and mail.

I am all to familiar and not arguing with you.

Mail is nice, if you return to the casino enough to use offers.

Multiline is not that interesting. It still has variance and bank requirements.

You yourself downgraded a multiline game if it has to many lines and to many hand pays. I agree with you.

I stand by my thoughts, for many if they look at the factors of time, bank requirements for VP and the variance then VP is not that attractive.

On a $1.25 3 hand multiline ($3.75 per play) you will spend about 4 to 5 hrs getting to 10g in action. This is a lot of time to lose if you play a decent SCORE bj game.

If you consider a dollar machine the variance can be crippling to a medium sized 10g bj bankroll.

Don't forget in chasing comps to count the time you spend waiting in lines for various things against your hourly EV.

Simply stated, if the SCORE/EV of VP does not equal BJ then why play it?

Play whatever has the highest SCORE/EV as much as you can.

:joker::whip:

 

[kewljason]

Play rated from time to time at the Borg. Confine it to your least played shift, so people don't recognize you as sometimes using a card and sometimes not. They have the nicest rooms and if you pick up a Borg hottie, you'll have somewhere close to go :grin:

There's a BIG disconnect between marketing and games there. I still get room offers for names that were half-shoed 3+ years ago.

From what I've read here there seems to be a big disconnect between gaming and marketing in most locations. :laugh: But I am ultra careful in everything I do from RoR, to playing style, to not playing rated at my favorite and most frequent locations.

Why, what's wrong with a roacher? I used to stay in the Rt. 30 places all the time before I earned my stripes in AC. One of them was unbelievably pleasant and comfortable, forgot which one though.

You're right that with your schedule you might be better off paying cash in LV, all depends on what/where/how much you play. Being I play a lot of exotic stuff I can usually get away with being rated. But... if you're going to pay cash, a penny saved is a penny earned, right?
.

Does Rt 30 go through Absecon? I see a string of motels from the train that look nicer than those places on Pacific Ave. I would never stay in those. Absecon probably wouldn't work for me either as I don't drive. I take the train. Beside, as I said, the Casino Hotels are under 50 bucks weekdays or so they advertise. I have never paid for one so I don't know. I don't need rooms in vegas, only AC and reno.

Comps are important. Refusal looks funny. zg

Not really. I buy in for a small amount, 8 units, which gives the impression I might not be staying too long. What looks funny is giving them your rating card and running three hands later which I will do if the count tanks. :laugh: I've had occasions where I have already pocketed my chips and am ready to bolt and am standing there waiting for the PC to come back with my card! Now that looks suspicious.

 

[sabre]

Comp play and wonging can work together if you are playing in an uncrowded pit ... especially when you can switch to another fresh shuffle with the same floorperson. Otherwise though, they're not conducive to each other.

 

[shadroch]

Good illustration.

Wait. Two hours of 100-play, five coin, at 400 hands per hour is 400,000 coins through. You deserve a comp!

In my experience the dollar 100-play is slow because there are too many handpays. At $500 per spin, a dealt two pair will pay $1000 plus a bunch of full houses, which puts you over the $1200 threshold.

I guess I wasn't clear. This was a nickle 100 play, so at max coins it was $5 a spin.
It's $8 a point, so you get a point and a half per spin. Two hours gives you around 700 points at my speed. My friends from the LVA board that give them 700 points on a daily average get rooms and about $50 per day in food comps.

 

[Automatic Monkey]

Does Rt 30 go through Absecon? I see a string of motels from the train that look nicer than those places on Pacific Ave. I would never stay in those. Absecon probably wouldn't work for me either as I don't drive. I take the train. Beside, as I said, the Casino Hotels are under 50 bucks weekdays or so they advertise. I have never paid for one so I don't know. I don't need rooms in vegas, only AC and reno.

Yes, those are the ones. The fact that they are only accessible by car keeps them decent and safe. The ones on Rt. 40 are accessible by city bus and are deadly.

In Reno I can just stay at Harrah's, give them some low-EV courtesy play for my LFB. There's nothing really good there so it's not like I'm missing out on or jeopardizing any good EV opportunities with any kind of play there, just as long as nothing ends up following me back to AC. HET Diamond is really worth it for a traveling AP. You can grind it out in a day or two every year. Reno is a little tough without a car. Nothing great downtown anymore.

 

[bigplayer]

Don't Play for Comps

For the last year or so I have played mostly anonymously as a refusal, only occasionally playing rated to earn some food comps. Lately I have been weighing the idea of playing more for comps and there have been some good discussion on the subject, including the current "easy way to get comped @harrah's" thread and even "Ap's are just advanced ploppies" touches on my thoughts.

I know some AP's like Kim Lee and Shadroch consider comps a major part of their advantage play compensation, while others just want to eliminate or reduce expenses.

Here is kind of where I am at in my thought process at the moment.

Lets say I am willing to devote 2 hours to comp play.

senario #1 I play blackjack rated for 3 hours at a reduced spread earning an expected win of 1 unit per hour or $75, but would receive comps to cover room and food.

Senario #2 I play other, negative expected games such as video poker for a couple hours showing an expected loss, but covering room and food.

Senario #3 I play 2 hours of unrated BJ at my normal spread earning an expected win of close to 3 units per hour or $225 dollars for 3 hours. No Comps. I pay for my room and food.

From a strictly financial point, number 3 seems to make the most sense for me at my level of play. I don't need a room in Vegas, but other locations such as AC or Reno that I may travel to rooms are very inexpensive at the moment with supply far outweighing demand. The extra $150 generated from #3 easily covers cost, and then some.

Of course the second consideration is cover. Having some negative EV games on record and even lower spread BJ would provide some cover. Of course the trade off to this is that the casino has information about you. Playing unrated they have none.

At this point in my thought process the decision seems pretty simple to me to continue to play unrated. Is there any angle that I am missing or perhaps not considering? Again, I am speaking only of my situation. For those that travel with a spouse and want to turn their trips into a working vacation and get nice suites and top restuarants, the equation would be different. For those playing at a significantly higher level than myself that can earn airfare reinbursement as well, again that would be a different consideration. Appreciate any thoughts, especially from those much more educated about the comp systems than myself.

Don't play for comps...but don't refuse to take them either. Play rated at a few places which are known to send good mail invites and other offers. Use the room offers you get in the mail and play elsewhere. If playing unrated at most places has been working for you don't change your plan for the sake of comps. Those incredibly overpriced comped meals in Vegas cost you more than you would pay if you just ate at a "normal" place or one of the many inexpensive Coffee shops. When you take a lot of comps you increase the chances that the bean counters will demand an analysis of your overall profitability and you probably don't want the scrutiny. Playing a super polite game costs you not only EV but wastes your time and energy that could be used elsewhere.

 

[StudiodeKadent]

If you're playing for comps and want to use AP techniques, why not just play an Ace-Five count on an S17 game with a 1-4 spread? That would get you a small player edge using a hard-to-detect count and a low spread that would allow you to milk the casino for comps over the long run without getting kicked out.

 

[kewljason]

Don't play for comps...but don't refuse to take them either. Play rated at a few places which are known to send good mail invites and other offers. Use the room offers you get in the mail and play elsewhere. If playing unrated at most places has been working for you don't change your plan for the sake of comps. Those incredibly overpriced comped meals in Vegas cost you more than you would pay if you just ate at a "normal" place or one of the many inexpensive Coffee shops. When you take a lot of comps you increase the chances that the bean counters will demand an analysis of your overall profitability and you probably don't want the scrutiny. Playing a super polite game costs you not only EV but wastes your time and energy that could be used elsewhere.

Thanx BP and everyone else for weighing in. Here's another related thought. I wonder if offers are diminished if you have a local, las vegas address. Points and comps earned from play should be the same, but are they less likely to send out mailers with additional or cash or bonus offers figuring they don't need to entice you to come to vegas?

 

[bigplayer]

I wonder if offers are diminished if you have a local, las vegas address. Points and comps earned from play should be the same, but are they less likely to send out mailers with additional or cash or bonus offers figuring they don't need to entice you to come to vegas?

The Locals casinos send room and event offers to out of town players. To locals these casinos send freeplay coupons, free bets, and gift of the month type offers. The Strip casinos have separate marketing programs for locals versus out of town guests. The out of town guests get the big invites for three nights, a larger single amount of freeplay, drawings, and tournaments. The locals are likely to get weekly freeplay offers and maybe invites to tournaments or drawings. Strip casinos used to not send ANYTHING to locals. They assumed locals were sharp and didn't want the business. Since the economic downturn most have had a change of heart. Many strip casinos (MGM) go strictly trip to trip for out of town players regarding comps (i.e., all comps expire at the end of a trip). For locals players they will use a rolling average of your last several trips so for locals some of your comps do carry over and are available to use on future visits...note that using a comp triggers a $0 play trip.

Still, the rule of thumb applies...for locals casinos be a local, for strip casinos be from out of town. For example, with Station Casinos it works best to have a separate name for each with a mail drop in the general area of each so that you get a set of coupons from each. If you have one name you will get coupons to either the property you play most of the one closest to your "home" address.

 

[bigplayer]

If you're playing for comps and want to use AP techniques, why not just play an Ace-Five count on an S17 game with a 1-4 spread? That would get you a small player edge using a hard-to-detect count and a low spread that would allow you to milk the casino for comps over the long run without getting kicked out.

I hear what you are saying, but if you use a tight spread you should use a really strong count to identify small changes in your edge. Then you just bet 1 when you don't have an edge and parlay up to 4 as quickly as you can when you have any edge at all.

 

[shadroch]

Thanx BP and everyone else for weighing in. Here's another related thought. I wonder if offers are diminished if you have a local, las vegas address. Points and comps earned from play should be the same, but are they less likely to send out mailers with additional or cash or bonus offers figuring they don't need to entice you to come to vegas?

Use multiple addresses. You live in both Phillie and Vegas so get cards in both addresses. It's not that difficult. Lets assume you have a non-drivers ID issued by Pennsylvania. You need to go and get a duplicate one. Simply tell them you lost it. On your next trip go to Vegas DMV and turn in the duplicate for a Vegas non-driver ID. Make a slight change to it. If your name is John J. Smith on one, make it John James Smith on the other. Now you have two legit state issued ids. Get two cards- one for local offerings, one for out of state offerings. I've done this for years with no hassles and the offers are often very different. One casino sent me three free nights and $100 food comp on my birthday, and in a locals offering sent me $50 in free slot play and a dinner comp. Distance offerings tend to be for free rooms, locals are free slot play or show tickets.

 

[kewljason]

Use multiple addresses. You live in both Phillie and Vegas so get cards in both addresses. It's not that difficult. Lets assume you have a non-drivers ID issued by Pennsylvania. You need to go and get a duplicate one. Simply tell them you lost it. On your next trip go to Vegas DMV and turn in the duplicate for a Vegas non-driver ID. Make a slight change to it. If your name is John J. Smith on one, make it John James Smith on the other. Now you have two legit state issued ids. Get two cards- one for local offerings, one for out of state offerings. I've done this for years with no hassles and the offers are often very different. One casino sent me three free nights and $100 food comp on my birthday, and in a locals offering sent me $50 in free slot play and a dinner comp. Distance offerings tend to be for free rooms, locals are free slot play or show tickets.

I already have Id for both locations. My lease in Philly is up at the end of this month and I won't be renewing, so LV will be my permanate home and my trips east will be less frequent. I was just trying to figure if it was worth it to change my Philly address to a friends address and have offer from LV sent there rather than to a las vegas address and it sounds as though it is worth doing.

 

[shadroch]

It is, for me. I've thought about setting up a third Id from Florida but honestly I can't handle all the offers I'm currently getting. You can change your address to that of a company that simply forwards your mail. As an example I have a mail drop for another business that the address would read
John Doe
217-18 104th Blvd
Apartment 218
Hollis NY 11258.

the apartment # is the mail box #. Anyone sending mail would not know this is a UPS store.
When it's business related Apartment 218 becomes Suite 218.

 

[Solo player]

Since I am no pro and don't play fulltime I say take comps some of the time. I go to Vegas about 5-8 times a year usualy staying 4 nights each time averaging about 30 hrs of play on each trip over the last couple of years and playing heavy green along with some lite black on the strip. About 13 to 15hrs each trip of are at the casino I'm staying at and playing rated. The rest of the time is spent table cruising in other casinos playing hit and run unrated. I have yet to be backed off at the rated places.
Playing rated has it's advanteges for an out of towner like myself. I get room offers along with suite upgrades at times any time I want to go, along with food coupons. This adds up to be a pretty good savings over time. I also know that sooner or later a backoff will occur. By the way when I used to play heavy red and lite green a few years ago downtown the backoffs were common.
Along the way I've found some things that I think help disguise your play.
Just playing green and not playing black I think it's much easier to fly under the radar sticking with green. Looks to me like the backoffs on the strip must come from the eye in the sky because they don't seem to even notice green chippers(Maybe they have bigger fish to fry)
Another thing is rathole, rathole, and rathole. I think this is also key. Any time the pit and dealer aren't watching I try to get some chips off the table. Or you can also palm a black chip or two and when the dealer starts to shuffle just stand up and pullout you cell like your checking the time or something and drop them in your pocket.
Another thing is to do A LOT of scouting. Only play games with good pen. Don't play marginal games! If you have CVCX software find games that have NO of 15000 or less. You will hit your averages sooner by sticking with these games.
Something else that has helped is on the rare occasion my wife goes along she plays rated on my card as well and she only plays B.S.
And be friendly to the pit crew. That can go a long way as well. They are just doing what has got be a boring job for the most part.
When the backoff happens then I will leave the place alone for a while then go back and play unrated. And get rated someplace else. But so far so good

 

[blackjack avenger]

Risk vs Reward

Wether to play for comps is a risk/reward decision just like many others we make:

How much to spread?
What indices to use?
Do we play correct BS?
What is our top bet?
Do we play other negative expectation games?
Do we play negative expectation bj hands?
How long do we play?
Do we play for comps?

Know your situation, analyze it, come to the best decision for you and reevaluate over time.
:joker::whip:

 

[Nynefingers]

I am quickly coming to the realization that if I'm going to play rated, I generally don't want to do it in my real name. If I get into any kind of databases of "undesirable" players, I don't want it to be in a name I care much about. If I come across any particularly good opportunities, it would be nice to have the option to trigger a CTR or otherwise give up legit ID and not have that lead to an automatic backoff when my name comes back no good. I think for anyone interested in anything other than straight counting, that is a valuable consideration. I'm sure the pros of the crowd know ways around that issue as well (obviously legal name changes come to mind) but it seems much simpler if your real name is just kept clean.