Positive EV?

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fredperson

Active Member
#1
#1
In an side bar to an article authored by Henry Tamburin in the June issue of Casino Player magazine, comes the following quote:

"The best single deck game, however is ar Barona's casino in San Diego. It not only pays 3-2 on blackjack but also allows players to surrender and double down after pair splitting. In this game, the basic strategy payer has a very slight edge over the house"

According to NIAs that inhabit this forum, the only way to achieve a positve EV is to count cards. So,who's right?
 
G

GeorgeD

Well-Known Member
#2
#2
It says "very slight" advantage

If this game is "double anything" and late surrender, a perfect strategy might give you a .2 advantage. If the limits are low, a BS player isn't going to net much in the long run. A counter witjh a wide bet spred will probably quickly be banned.

Overall most patrons will make enough mistakes for the house to make money.

fredperson said:
In an side bar to an article authored by Henry Tamburin in the June issue of Casino Player magazine, comes the following quote:

"The best single deck game, however is ar Barona's casino in San Diego. It not only pays 3-2 on blackjack but also allows players to surrender and double down after pair splitting. In this game, the basic strategy payer has a very slight edge over the house"

According to NIAs that inhabit this forum, the only way to achieve a positve EV is to count cards. So,who's right?
Click to expand...
 
ihate17

ihate17

Well-Known Member
#3
#3
Two different things

fredperson said:
In an side bar to an article authored by Henry Tamburin in the June issue of Casino Player magazine, comes the following quote:

"The best single deck game, however is ar Barona's casino in San Diego. It not only pays 3-2 on blackjack but also allows players to surrender and double down after pair splitting. In this game, the basic strategy payer has a very slight edge over the house"

According to NIAs that inhabit this forum, the only way to achieve a positve EV is to count cards. So,who's right?
Click to expand...

The only way to achieve a positive EV from a negative EV game is to count cards, but that is not the only way to change a negative game into a positive one, but is the most popular and easiest way.

In your example the game is already a positive EV game so cardcounting would just increase your edge.The negative or positive is set by using the rules of the game with the basic strategy for it.
Finally, I believe but may be wrong, that the Barona game is still a negative EV game but the closest to positive presently available.

ihate17
 
1

1357111317

Well-Known Member
#4
#4
What if one counted but didn't spread their bets at that game? Just used a count with very good PE. Would you be able to get a decent advantage?
 
Automatic Monkey

Automatic Monkey

Banned
#6
#6
fredperson said:
In an side bar to an article authored by Henry Tamburin in the June issue of Casino Player magazine, comes the following quote:

"The best single deck game, however is ar Barona's casino in San Diego. It not only pays 3-2 on blackjack but also allows players to surrender and double down after pair splitting. In this game, the basic strategy payer has a very slight edge over the house"

According to NIAs that inhabit this forum, the only way to achieve a positve EV is to count cards. So,who's right?
Click to expand...
Using Basic Strategy the house still has a tiny edge.

Using a composition-dependent strategy the player should get the tiny edge.

Counting, and using insurance and playing indices with a flat bet the player can make a little bit of money, can probably get away with it as long as he wants and probably be treated like any other black-chip bettor. But the pen isn't deep enough for this game to be really profitable.
 
moo321

moo321

Well-Known Member
#7
#7
1357111317 said:
What if one counted but didn't spread their bets at that game? Just used a count with very good PE. Would you be able to get a decent advantage?
Click to expand...
Not a decent advantage. If you're willing to leave some negative counts, or put your bet on two spots in negative counts (2x$50 instead of 1x$100) those could all help. Maybe a half percent.

Spreading 2-1 would make it much better, and you could probably get away with this.
 
F

Frankie

Well-Known Member
#8
#8
moo321 said:
Not a decent advantage. If you're willing to leave some negative counts, or put your bet on two spots in negative counts (2x$50 instead of 1x$100) those could all help. Maybe a half percent.

Spreading 2-1 would make it much better, and you could probably get away with this.
Click to expand...
Uh, I've played that game. No, you couldn't get away with it. Trust me. They are real nice though, very soft backoff and you can play any other game. Just no single deck, please.
 
tribute

tribute

Well-Known Member
#10
#10
ihate17 said:
Finally, I believe but may be wrong, that the Barona game is still a negative EV game but the closest to positive presently available.

ihate17
Click to expand...


According to the Basic Strategy Engine on this site, for these rules, the player has a 0.18 advantage.
 
S

SystemsTrader

Well-Known Member
#12
#12
tribute said:
According to the Basic Strategy Engine on this site, for these rules, the player has a 0.18 advantage.
Click to expand...
The rules according to CBJN are 1D,H17,DAS,LS $100 min. and I calculate that a basic strategy player has a .021% edge over the house. Not a big advantage but an advantage none the less for the basic strategy player. This would be a great game for a comp counter just flat betting. Throw in some composition hands and some indexes and you can probably more than double that edge. You would still require a very large account to play this game safely. It would also be the one time in single deck when you would want more players at the table.
 
1

1357111317

Well-Known Member
#13
#13
Has someone ever run a sim on how kind of advantage you could get with a count with a really good PE? If you sat at 3rd base and used maybe a SC of 7,8 and 9s could you even get the advantage close to .5%?
 
L

lucifer

Well-Known Member
#14
#14
sounds like a good game to me.if they throw you out for a 2 to 1 spread than just use basic strategy with playing indices for insurance and playing of the hands. that should bump up that game to at least .30% with no heat.throw in the comps and free rooms and you have a decent game. 100 hands x 100 per bet and you get 100k an hour.multiply that by .30 and you get 30 an hour.cant get that in the stock market.your swings wouldnt be as violent since your flat betting.you need a nice bankroll but if you have it and time to spend-go for it.
 
E

ExhibitCAA

Well-Known Member
#15
#15
You won't get 100 rounds per hour on a pitch game with a bunch of degenerates at your table.

100 x 100 is not 100k.

If a game with a 0.3% edge sounds good to you, you need to get out more.

[You won't get 30 an hour in the stock market.] Even if that is true, there is a big difference: the stock market doesn't require you to work for the 30 an hour (you could be sitting in front of your TV).
 
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moo321

moo321

Well-Known Member
#17
#17
If you can't spread, it's really unplayable. I'd rather play crappy $5 8-deckers than flat bet a tiny advantage with a large table min.
 
C

chichow

Well-Known Member
#18
#18
not necessarily here, but I was playing this marginal DD game with of course
NMS.

and when I went to spread from 1 to 2 hands, I was told I could not since it was NMS.

so rather than continue to play the marginal game, I quickly moved on...

Why play a marginal game unless you are looking to kill time and build comps.
 
creeping panther

creeping panther

Banned
#19
#19
Chichow

chichow said:
not necessarily here, but I was playing this marginal DD game with of course
NMS.

and when I went to spread from 1 to 2 hands, I was told I could not since it was NMS.

so rather than continue to play the marginal game, I quickly moved on...

Why play a marginal game unless you are looking to kill time and build comps.
Click to expand...
Chi,

That is total bull ****, I would have walked too.:(

CP
 
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