precise casino edge %?

Mr. T · Sep 25, 2010

j.a.o.p. said:

In you opening post you said "ES(surrender vs A)" and here you said "surrender.vs any upcard". Until you get this sort out you have everybody here on a wild goose chase, our common expression here. Any calculation is meaningless here let alone getting the precise %.

Where the hell do you get either of this in ENHC. I have not heard of either of this.

j.a.o.p. · Sep 25, 2010

Mr. T said:

im very sorry for the uncertainty.they are prob caused by my lack of english skills.

i`ll try it one more time.

dealer deals one card to any box,then his upcard,then the second card for any box.
if dealer`s upcard is an ace,he`ll ask for insurance upfront.
all other decisions are made by players when its their turn, including surrender.
surrender means you give your bet up for 50%.
after you give your bet up,you`re done with the hand.
after all players took their actions,the dealer will complete his hand.
it`ll make absolutely no difference if the dealer busts ,make a point or a BJ.

Mike

Mr. T · Sep 25, 2010

Mr. T said:

Mike, we cannot help you unless you answer my question above. Forget about insurance and we know you are playing ENHC. What options do you have in playing the Surrender rules. Which is it

Or is it something else.

k_c · Sep 25, 2010

j.a.o.p. said:

What you described is early surrender versus up cards of both ten and ace along with surrender allowed versus up cards of 2 through 9.

So for these input parameters -

6 decks
ENHC
Surreneder allowed versus 2-9
Early surrender allowed versus 10
Early surrender allowed versus ace
Double any 2 card total
3 allowed splits for pairs 2-10, no double after split allowed
3 allowed splits versus ace, no double after split allowed
No hitting split aces

- Player expected value using best strategy is +.0510%

Best strategy means a hand such as 5-5-5-1 vs T is stand and not hit because that is the best strategy for this particular hand composition.

You can input those rules or other variations in online cdca program.

You might want to take a look at the help link for a little more information on what inputs are available and what they mean.

Additional

You can get an approximation of total dependent strategy using the program by inputting a very large number of decks and then removing just enough cards to form a full 1,2,4,6, or 8 deck shoe and choosing a Compute Mode of Basic full shoe CD strategy.

For example you could input 40000000 for number of decks and input a composition of {24,24,24,24,24,24,24,24,24,96,24} (2 through ace). Basic CD strategy for 40000000 decks is mostly the same as total dependent strategy for 6 decks.

When 'Compute' is clicked with above inputs, changed composition, and Compute Mode of Basic full shoe CD strategy then overall player EV computes to +.0472%. My tdca program, which computes using total dependent strategy, computes the same composition/rules to +.0477%.

What's being done is to compute for a finite deck using strategy from a virtual infinite deck. There is no difference at all between composition dependent strategy and total dependent strategy for an infinite deck. As one progresses from 1,2,3,4,....,n decks there is less and less difference between the actual best total dependent strategy for this number of decks and infinite shoe strategy until at some point there is no difference at all.

For above 6 deck example the strategy differences are

Code:

		[u]best 6 deck TD strat[/u]	[u]infinite shoe generic TD basic[/u]
A-2 v 5		double			hit
A-4 v 4		double			hit

London Colin · Sep 25, 2010

Mr. T said:

He's explained it perfectly clearly. The detail about insurance is just a little extra information.

The Basic Strategy Engine on this site says that the house still has a small edge using total-dependent strategy: 0.07% with 8 decks, and 0.04% with 6 decks. [Hang on a second, though. I forgot about re-split aces. That's not an option on the strategy engine, but is apparently worth about +0.07% to the player, making it break-even for 8-decks and a player edge of +0.03% for 6 decks.]

Mr. T · Sep 25, 2010

London Colin said:

C'mon Colin, you are not trying to even the score with me with this one are you?

The details on resplit Ace, split to 4 hand and number of decks are all peanuts. We all know how to play the insurance rule.

What matters is what the OP means by Earlier Surrender. You assume that he means against not just the Ace but all cards. Here is what iCountNTtrack has to say

And we are getting as many diferrent HE from as many posters here. So who is right.

Hang on to your hat and lets get a reply from the OP first.

London Colin · Sep 25, 2010

Mr. T said:

I was mainly trying to make poor Mike feel a little less picked upon. I don't generally keep score.

Mr. T said:

Total-dependent and composition-dependent answers have been offered. Which is right depends on which strategy you follow when you play the game.

j.a.o.p. said:

OK. Reading that back, I'll concede it's still a little ambiguous. You might not get the opportunity to make your surrender decision when it's your turn; the dealer might say "Sorry, not against a ten". But from all that's been said it seems pretty clear that Mike means surrender against any upcard.

Surrender is simply surrender, when it's against 2-9; the concept of late or early has no meaning there. So the twin issues we've been clarifying are -

If you surrender when there is a potential dealer BJ, do you get your 50% back straight away, or do you have to wait for the dealer's hand to be resolved? That's been answered. You get your 50% back straight away. So any surrender you are allowed to make against a dealer ten or ace would, by definition, be an early surrender.
There is a potential dealer BJ when the dealer shows a ten or an ace. Can you surrender against both of these cards? That would be full early surrender.

Mike,

Can you answer that second point directly, just so there is absolutely no remaining doubt? The source of any confusion seems to be what you put in your very first post -

What did you mean by that? Was it that, unlike some games where you only get early surrender against T, here it is true for both T and A?

Mr. T · Sep 25, 2010

Colin, you know I always let you have the last word.
Except in this case there is a third party, Mike, and it looks like the last word belongs to Mike.

j.a.o.p. · Sep 25, 2010

i used the term ES,cause for europeans LS is even more biased.
in any european casino i`ve been to,surrender (if offered) means :
give up half your bet vs 2-T.
most casinos ask for surrender upfront (like insurance),some let you make this decision when its your turn.

the remarkable here in is surrender vs A!(A-T)

i guess the casino got no idea how costly this little gimmick will be.

i anyway play in this casino,mostly cause of the discount i get (if i loose).
on the other hand,it might be profitable to take a private table and flat bet all boxes all day?

@ K_C

+.051% is for 6 decks (composition dependent)
but doesn`the use of a CSM increase this number?
(http://wizardofodds.com/blackjack/appendix10.html)

and how much does the edge shrinks by using basic strat?
i figure this strat might be best:
http://www.blackjackinfo.com/bjbse.php?numdecks=8+decks&soft17=s17&dbl=all&das=yes&surr=es&peek=no

@ Colin and Mr_T
you guys are obv good mates?

Mike

London Colin · Sep 25, 2010

j.a.o.p. said:

Oops. Sorry, I just noticed that I made a mistake when I quoted the basic strategy edge earlier. I used the same tool you are using, but I accidentally had it on 'No double after split'.

(Have you noticed that the house edge gets displayed at the top of the strategy table?)

There seems to be something wrong somewhere though, because with 'double after split' selected the figure given for 8 decks is a player edge of +0.05%, and for 6 decks it is +0.08%. That's higher than k_c's figure, and doesn't (as far as I know) include the additional gain from resplitting aces, which is a further +0.07%, according to 'Blackbelt in Blackjack'!

Now I'm confused.

[ Edit: OK. I see it now. k_c also selected no DAS, but your decription of the rules did say DAS.
I've now tried entering the details for 6 decks in k_c's online tool, including DAS, and I'm getting 0.1273.
That still doesn't quite seem to tally. If resplitting aces is really worth +0.07, that would make 0.08+0.07=0.15.]

[Edit2: Played some more and realised I had selected only 1 split of aces (compared to 3 of other hands). Setting both to 3 gives a figure of 0.1909.
So If I've finally got all the settings right, that implies the difference between CD and TD strategies is about 0.04%. (It also looks like quite an attractive game.

)]

k_c · Sep 25, 2010

j.a.o.p. said:

Main difference is CSM eliminates any cut card effect so EV for CSM is a little more. For 6 decks there's not much difference.
CSM will match full shoe EV. If game is dealt to a cut card then full shoe EV will be slightly reduced.

j.a.o.p. said:

I added to my other post. Total dependent EV for 6 decks is very close to composition dependent. CDEV = +.051%, TDEV = +.0477%. Either strategy is very close to break even.

j.a.o.p. · Sep 25, 2010

thx for the discussion.highly appreciated.

finally,my EV-guess wasn`t that bad.
when the casino will again force me to the CSM.
i`ll play a very long session.
as i always play private table,
i gonna play all boxes and i`ll play fast.forcing some dealer errors.
dealers and inspectors are meh (at best).

oh yeah,and i have one more subject.
but i`ll start a new thread for that.

thanks

Mike

j.a.o.p. · Sep 28, 2010

hi folks,

today i `ve been to this casino again.
some good news:
-they let me play the shoegame
-i took them 8k
and the very best,all of sudden its now allowed to hit on split aces and
to double on them!

i`m going back there tomorrow.i guess i`ll gonna sleep on the BJ.table.

Mike

tensplitter · Sep 28, 2010

You can hit on split aces, and double them! Wow!

j.a.o.p. · Sep 28, 2010

tensplitter said:

really unbelievebal.
i was shocked when i splitted A´s vs a 3 and he asked me if i wanna hit or double (i got a 5,i think).
i acted like a complete donk and said:"no,i can`t"
"yes,you can"
"no"
"yes,yes"
"are you sure?"
"yes"
"always?"
"yes"
"oh,hmmm,alright,i double!"

but what`s my edge now?:devil:

my guess: 0.35% - 0.4% using basic strat?

Mike

precise casino edge %?

Mr. T

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