Question for Edgecapper

biggamejames

Well-Known Member
#1
I need your expertise on the issue regarding the use of rewards cards by a counter.

I find that when i refuse to give the casino my rewards cards, it often opens up the game with an air of great suspicion and unease among the pit crew. So i either have to tough out the first 20 or so minutes with the bosses hovering annoyingly while making way too many cover plays and this can be costly..

If you give them the card they now know who you are, and of course you get the pc to calm down a bit. Those bastards some where in the back rooms now know your weeks earnings at their casino, if you are winning more than they appreciate, they will not probably have an eye on you when you step in the casino next.

what would be the best way to use your rewards card to get comps.(which i live by on this trips)
 

ColorMeUp

Well-Known Member
#3
biggamejames said:
I find that when i refuse to give the casino my rewards cards, it often opens up the game with an air of great suspicion and unease among the pit crew.
Why wouldn't you just say "I don't have one" when they ask you for it? At the stores I frequent I would say that more players don't present players cards at the tables than do.
 

shadroch

Well-Known Member
#4
As you still haven't told us what kind of counting system you use,I can only offer some generic help.
Why are you making any sort of cover plays when you have first sat down. The PB has no idea what kind of player you are.If you flat bet $100 for a half hour or so,regardless of count,you'll lose about $30.That has to be cheaper than just one so-called cover play.No PB in the world is going to be hovering over a flat bettor if the casino is semi-full.If you want to seal the deal,get up and walk away from a monster count.As you are flat-betting and simply playing BS. It will cost you nothing. Not a single dime,but will absolutely convince the PB you aren't counting.
 

moo321

Well-Known Member
#5
If you refuse to give a card, they can't track your play. They won't be able to look up "that one guy" in the database. On the other hand, you look more suspicious, and you don't get comps. Your call.
 

shadroch

Well-Known Member
#6
moo321 said:
If you refuse to give a card, they can't track your play. They won't be able to look up "that one guy" in the database. On the other hand, you look more suspicious, and you don't get comps. Your call.
Thats not correct. They can still track your play and can easily identify you in their database from your photo. Casinos are getting some very advanced facial recognition software.They don't need a name to 86 a player.
 

biggamejames

Well-Known Member
#7
ColorMeUp said:
Why wouldn't you just say "I don't have one" when they ask you for it? At the stores I frequent I would say that more players don't present players cards at the tables than do.

See this is why wanna ask the guy who has worked at the Casino so he can tell me how thinks work.

One time i told this pit boss that i didnt have my card. Went on on and on about how they give us too many cards and i cant keep track of mine.
So the pit boss says, just give me your ID and i will make you another card.
And he stands right there by me waiting for the ID. Dismissively i say, no i dont have the ID.... Then the sucker gets this look on his face like i just said Osama is crouching under the table!!!:eek: He walks off to call friggin security or some crap....I was just tired of looking for a table so i folded and gave him the id!!!

But the reason i ask Edgecapper this question is because there might be a chance that a player may be under more scrutiny if they dont show a card than one who comes in and seems normal and gives up his card.
 
#8
biggamejames said:
So the pit boss says, just give me your ID and i will make you another card.
And he stands right there by me waiting for the ID.
This was happening to me too and I just gave in and started using a player card.
Is it your "regular" casino or someplace you don't game at very often? I try and skip the player card at a place until I decide I'm going to add it to my regular stomping grounds. I figure when I'm someplace often enough to be remembered or look familiar to some of the dealers, I might as well stop trying to hide things.
That being said, I too would very much like to know from a casino employee perspective if it draws more attention to be avoiding identity info.
 

EasyRhino

Well-Known Member
#9
"Card refused" is going to be one suspicious factor for the casino management. But by itself it won't mean anything. But combine it with other suspicious factors (ramping bets, play deviations, buying in for an unusually large amount, betting an unusually large amount) and you got problems.
 

Sonny

Well-Known Member
#10
biggamejames said:
I find that when i refuse to give the casino my rewards cards, it often opens up the game with an air of great suspicion and unease among the pit crew.
That’s true. When a player turns down free stuff, the pit bosses rightfully get suspicious. I’ve heard several pit bosses say this. There are a few ways to handle this.

Playing with a card:

Some players will have a “home” casino or two that they use for comps. They will play conservatively, sometimes even a break-even game, and not get carried away with their bet spread. They will use these casinos strictly to accrue comps and free rooms/meals. All other casinos can be played aggressively. This is what Max Rubin calls Comp Counting. You could also do straight comp hustling without counting at your home casinos, but that’s a bit extreme.

If you’re not willing to eat up a bunch of variance by playing a weak game then you can still play aggressively and possibly risk getting backed off. In that case you can always return using a different rewards card. You can use a friend’s card, a random card that you find in the casino, or use an alternate ID to get a new card using a different name. These methods only work if the pit bosses don’t recognize your face. In most of the big strip casinos this isn’t much of a problem, but it might wear out your welcome for a few months. During that time you’ll have to find a new “home” casino.

Playing without a card:

If you’re willing to give up some of your comps then you can play anonymously. That way you can play as aggressively as you want. If you don’t get too crazy then you will still qualify for food and drink comps and line passes, but the free rooms and tournaments will disappear. Even though most casinos will give you a “casino rate” for a room with no questions asked, those free rooms can really be a big help.

biggamejames said:
One time i told this pit boss that i didnt have my card. Went on on and on about how they give us too many cards and i cant keep track of mine.
So the pit boss says, just give me your ID and i will make you another card.
And he stands right there by me waiting for the ID. Dismissively i say, no i dont have the ID.... Then the sucker gets this look on his face like i just said Osama is crouching under the table!!!:eek:
This kind of situation is not hard to deal with if you have a good act. You can give them almost any reason for not wanting to get a rewards card:

-“I don’t want the IRS to know about this. I've already got problems.”
-“I don’t want my wife to know about this part of the “’business trip.’”
-“I’m sick of all that junk mail. I get crap every week from XYZ casino ever since I signed up.”
-“I don’t give anybody my personal information ever since my identity was stolen last year.”
-“I don’t have time for the paperwork. My flight leaves in two hours and I need to win back $300!”
-“No way! If the guys from Gamblers Anonymous find out that I’m here I’ll break my probation.”
-“No, I can’t stay for long. My wife is asleep upstairs and I need to get back before she wakes up.” This is great for Wonging.

The list goes on and on. There are dozens of different excuses to give depending on what sort of act you are using and what style of play you are using.

-Sonny-
 

Mimosine

Well-Known Member
#11
Sonny said:
-“I don’t want the IRS to know about this. I've already got problems.”
-“I don’t want my wife to know about this part of the “’business trip.’”
-“I’m sick of all that junk mail. I get crap every week from XYZ casino ever since I signed up.”
-“I don’t give anybody my personal information ever since my identity was stolen last year.”
-“I don’t have time for the paperwork. My flight leaves in two hours and I need to win back $300!”
-“No way! If the guys from Gamblers Anonymous find out that I’m here I’ll break my probation.”
-“No, I can’t stay for long. My wife is asleep upstairs and I need to get back before she wakes up.” This is great for Wonging.
all of those are great.

lately i've been fonding of making a deal with the pit:
"i'm not sure i like your casino yet, this is my first time here, i tell you what, if i'm up $300 in an hour i'll sign up."
they always leave me alone after that.
 

EasyRhino

Well-Known Member
#12
Sonny said:
-“No way! If the guys from Gamblers Anonymous find out that I’m here I’ll break my probation.”
Wonder if this would cause an overly conscientous casino to check of you're on a voluntary self-exclusion list. Might have drawbacks.
 

Sonny

Well-Known Member
#14
EasyRhino said:
Wonder if this would cause an overly conscientous casino to check of you're on a voluntary self-exclusion list.
Yeah, just let me know when you find one! :grin:

You can always laugh it off as a joke and they will probably leave you alone. Unless they really want to know who you are (if they have been observing you for a while) they aren't going to pester you about it.

-Sonny-
 
#15
A great excuse would be to say you wont be playing long. When that thought is in their head, they may feel its a waste of time to watch you because you may not stay long enough to get a read. Say something like "Im probably only going to stay a couple minutes, im waiting for a phone call from my boss."

My recomendation for comps is to get a fake ID or sign up using something other than a drivers license with a differant name. I have multiple accounts in a few casinos because I have a hyphenated last name so when I sign up, I say just put it under #### and another day say the other name. You dont really need a license to sign up in the pit. Where I used to work, we used library cards, student IDs, and being downtown, prison IDs. A simple fake ID would be to get an authorized user on your visa card and have a card made in a fake name. I got one with my dogs name a couple years ago and it just said "Loki" with no last name, haha. I did it just for the hell of it before i moved to vegas just so I could show people my dog had a credit card, but I know you can put any name for a visa authorized user. When asked for your ID, say your wife has it for some reason and ask if they can use that. I never refused when I was the boss and I havent seen anyone have a problem.

Also remember, the larger the buy in, the more power you have over the floorman. A guy came in to my current casino about two months ago and after buying in $5000 demanded a players card with the name "Clark W Griswald". He instantly became my hero, even before he tossed me $400 for his $2500 win. That was all the information they got from him, but they gave in and printed the card. He was doing impersonations and quotes from Vegas Vacation while he played. Good times.

Find out how much you must buy in to get rated at the property you are playing. Many, like where I am at now, require >$200 to be logged in the system, everyone else using their card gets a temp rating which gets you food the day you play, if you ask, and is never recorded in the system. Comps are based on a multiplier using average bet and time played. If your not going to be playing for long and your average bet is going to be less than $20 per hand, its most likely not worth it to have them rate your play. Unless you win a substantial amount or are playing suspiciously where they end up entering a warning on your account to let the floormen know to watch you closely on your next visit, your play notes will most likely end up in the trash can. If your playing downtown, you get more appreciation for low limit play and if your going to use a players card anywhere, that would be your best choice.

If you give a players card, its easier to tell if you have heat. If the pit has your card and you are betting with the value of the deck and being watched, keep an eye on the floorman and if he goes from watching you to typing in the computer, he is likely reading notes about previous play. Along with logging win/loss, the pit can write detailed notes about your play and even instruct the next floormen to back you off if they didnt get a chance.

If you are a first time player, it isnt too suspicious to play without a card, but once you are seen a few times, it may raise an eyebrow. If you are playing high limits, it is less likely that anyone would be suspicious for you refusing free stuff because the pit will assume you have plenty of money, and don't need their free meals or rooms and may even help your cover. Appearing to not care about money is a great cover and makes the pit boss think you will eventually lose so it is ok for you to win for now. Nothing beats laughter and a genuine smile as the dealer flips over their blackjack.

As an alternative, become friends with a pit boss like Zengrifter and I, and when that pit boss leaves the company, you suddenly have over $2000 in comp credit ready for you on your next visit. ;)
 

biggamejames

Well-Known Member
#16
Thanks for the great reply....

I think i will go with the "home casino" option and use that. (My problem is that i normally beat the **** out of my home casino since their tables are the most accessible being that i typically play at weird off hours like 3 in the morning or 10am on a weekday) I will have to wean myself off molesting my home casino and stick to the outsiders...(Though the last trip i had, i ended up totally abusing the casino next door to the new casino i had selected for my comps for tunica..Unknown to me, that casino was owned by the casino i was staying at. And it did not help that on Friday, my day of departure, i had a drunken betting spree (from celebrating my huge wins from the casino next door) and i ended up still beating the crap out of them

I went to bed at 7am and those idiots called me at 12pm asking me to check out. They even refused to give me late check out for 3pm and said i had to be out by 1pm or they would have security escort me out.:eek:
At first i thought they were genuinely sold out and needed that suite..(they had comped me a plush full suite)..While i am checking out while still semi drunk, i asked them to comp all my room service (about 50 bucks total)
THOSE BASTARDS SAID NO!!!!:flame: First time in 6 months i have had to foot a hotel bill of any kind!!!!

Well i think i wore out my welcome so i am taking a break and will be trying out these new tactics in Las Vegas...




Also, i know that casinos dont give comps for Sports books plays. But as they say, anything is possible in las Vegas, is there any way to twist the arm of your host and have him comp your sports book plays...(while of course buying back the plays at another book.)


And here is the final question.

I was forced to flat bet at an mgm property in Tunica under suspicion of counting. Do you think i will now be forced to stay away from all MGM properties now (or that i should not bother trying to get comps from them any more?


Actually this is the final question. If i give a casino my card and buy in for about 300-400 then walk out as soon as i hit about 900. Will that really bother a las vegas casino even if they suspect or know that you were counting cards before you walked out?

Would they have a problem if you walked out with about 900 to 1500 every visit (visits would be spaced about 1 or 2 days apart)
 
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biggamejames

Well-Known Member
#17
Ms. Dalton said:
This was happening to me too and I just gave in and started using a player card.
Is it your "regular" casino or someplace you don't game at very often? I try and skip the player card at a place until I decide I'm going to add it to my regular stomping grounds. I figure when I'm someplace often enough to be remembered or look familiar to some of the dealers, I might as well stop trying to hide things.
That being said, I too would very much like to know from a casino employee perspective if it draws more attention to be avoiding identity info.
I have tried holding the card the entire session and then if i feel like i used enough cover play i will give them the card and ask the Pit boss to enter a generous average bet.

Of course when i was doing this, i forgot to keep records of the casinos i was playing at, and the amounts i was winning.

I think one has to keep these records so as to avoid getting confused and also keeping records so that you know which casinos gave you more heat than you were comfortable with. This way, you know which casino you can give the card to and keep track of those you know suspect you of counting.


I think it would also be smart to keep track of your profits/losses, so you can know where your play would be welcomed because you lost there and where you will have to watch your butt because you have been winning too much.
I know thats what i am gonna start doing because i dont see how one can keep all this stuff in their head.
 

Sonny

Well-Known Member
#18
biggamejames said:
Actually this is the final question. If i give a casino my card and buy in for about 300-400 then walk out as soon as i hit about 900. Will that really bother a las vegas casino even if they suspect or know that you were counting cards before you walked out?
If their computer records show a lifetime win over several trips they might start to get suspicious. That might start to draw more attention to you. You can avoid that by hiding chips or keeping your winning sessions anonymous. You can also schedule your departures for times when the pit is very busy and might not notice how much you left with. Things like shift changes (usually 20-60 minutes before the dealer changes), table fills and changing the cards are great times to escape without being noticed.

If they suspect you of card counting they probably won’t let you get away with it for long unless you are playing for small stakes. Otherwise they will let you know as soon as they find out.

biggamejames said:
I think it would also be smart to keep track of your profits/losses, so you can know where your play would be welcomed because you lost there and where you will have to watch your butt because you have been winning too much.
I know thats what i am gonna start doing because i dont see how one can keep all this stuff in their head.
That’s a good idea. When I’m on a trip I’ll usually enter my session results into a spreadsheet at the end of each day. That way I can sort my results by each casino to see what my lifetime numbers look like and what my recent results have been. Of course, their records will be a bit lower than mine (from hiding chips) but I like to have a general idea of how badly I’ve beat them during the past few days before I schedule which casinos and shifts to play.

biggamejames said:
Would they have a problem if you walked out with about 900 to 1500 every visit (visits would be spaced about 1 or 2 days apart)
I wouldn’t worry about that. Even the best card counters in the world don’t expect to win in a particular casino every day or even every trip. The variance is just way too high. Hell, there are a few casinos that still have me beat after 3 years of play! Luckily there are a lot of casinos that have paid more than their share.

-Sonny-
 

ScottH

Well-Known Member
#19
EdgeCapper said:
Also remember, the larger the buy in, the more power you have over the floorman. A guy came in to my current casino about two months ago and after buying in $5000 demanded a players card with the name "Clark W Griswald". He instantly became my hero, even before he tossed me $400 for his $2500 win. That was all the information they got from him, but they gave in and printed the card. He was doing impersonations and quotes from Vegas Vacation while he played. Good times.
That's one of the best ideas ever. A classic movie!
 

halcyon1234

Well-Known Member
#20
Two ideas:

1) Buy in for almost your full amount at the cage. Then sit down. When they ask if you want a PC, say "For $50? Nah". Then pull out more chips if needed. (If they ask why you didn't use those originally, say you weren't intending on playing this much, but want to win back. If they say "how about a card now", you just say "Nah, I'm almost done").

2) Spend 5 minutes in the gift store. Find an expensive "comp", like a leather jacket or a spa stay. These are reserved for slot players, and only slot players that play for, like, fifty seven years. Go to the bj tables. When they ask about if you want a PC, say, "Maybe. I saw some comps I'd like. How much do I have to play for xxx?". They'll tell you "Sorry, that's for slot players only" or "Seven hundred hours of play with a $150 bet" or something equally wtf-esque. Look dissapointed and say "I guess it's not worth it." If they go on about food, just say you already ate, thank you anyways. Then cash in and play.
 
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