Question on splitting faces.

#1
Hi,

I was at the casino the other day, and I had 2 queens. I split them just because I felt like it and the bets were only $10 each that hand. I said that I knew it was the wrong move, but I like to do it anyway sometimes. I won both hands and the dealer said something like "you won this time, but splitting faces messes up the entire shoe." Can someone please explain to me how this "messes up" the shoe (if she was right)?

Thanks
 

ColorMeUp

Well-Known Member
#2
mattmd said:
Hi,

I was at the casino the other day, and I had 2 queens. I split them just because I felt like it and the bets were only $10 each that hand. I said that I knew it was the wrong move, but I like to do it anyway sometimes. I won both hands and the dealer said something like "you won this time, but splitting faces messes up the entire shoe." Can someone please explain to me how this "messes up" the shoe (if she was right)?

Thanks
It doesn't "mess up the entire shoe," its just not the proper play. Making the wrong plays can't mess up the shoe, it can just mess up your bankroll. Just like people who get all pissed off when someone hits a 14 or something against a 6, pulls a ten, and leaves the dealer to pull a 5 after the dealer flips the 10 under his 6. An improper play like that is just as likely to help you as it is to help you, since we don't know the order of cards coming out of the shoe (unless you're shuffle/card tracking etc).
 

Mackhack

Well-Known Member
#4
Of course she was wrong.

My way to reply to pissed off people is that I tell them if they know the order and the cards are coming out next please come make an contract with me and we play together from now on. Or I point on my chips and tell them that is my money, those are your chips, I do whatever I want to do and NO!!! I don't mess up the whole table with that and NO!!! I don't have to play with you together because I play for myself and you play for yourself.

Usually that helps or at least people leave the table and you can play heads-on!
 
#5
I had that happen to me today, and I used the same line.

I made a play that some lady at the table disagreed with. She let me know she didn't like it, and then claimed I was responsible for everyone at the table losing that hand. I told her that she could tell me how to play my hand as soon as she started betting for me. A few people got up and left and I got to play with only one other player for the next 15 minutes.
 

ihate17

Well-Known Member
#7
Just making friends at the blackjack table

In certain high count situations against a dealer 5 or 6 it is the proper play but because of pit heat and just bring attention to yourself, many counters pass up the opportunity. I generally only do it when I know I am shortly leaving that casino and not returning for a period of time.

You had the right answers though, you can not mess up a shoe unless you know the exact order of the cards yet to be dealt and can be sure that everyone on the table will hit or stand properly. Unless you know this, the order of the shoe or better know as the "SACRED FLOW OF BLACKJACK" is a false god. Finally, for those that believe blackjack is a team sport: I will believe this when other players pitch in and cover any of my losing sessions.

ihate17
 

Mackhack

Well-Known Member
#8
ihate17 said:
Finally, for those that believe blackjack is a team sport: I will believe this when other players pitch in and cover any of my losing sessions.
Exactly! There is no team on this table unless someone shares win and lose with me!

But those suckers just don't know what I and many other counters know...
 

tedloc

Well-Known Member
#9
Read this Renzy article...

mattmd said:
Hi,

I won both hands and the dealer said something like "you won this time, but splitting faces messes up the entire shoe." Can someone please explain to me how this "messes up" the shoe (if she was right)?

Thanks

Dealer's Hand
2 - 10

5 - 10 10 - 5
3rd Base You

9 - 10
Next 2 cards


Let's just have a little peak at the dealer's hole card, shall we? As you can see, it's a 10 giving him 12. But let's not stop there. You see, I've just bribed the dealer into flashing us a glimpse of the next two cards in the shoe? They're a 9 and a 10, but he flashed them so quickly that we couldn't tell which card was first and which was second.
Now you know everything there is to know except for the final outcome. So, I ask you again. How do you want the third baseman to play his hand? Notice that if he hits, no matter which card comes first, he loses. And if he stands, he's got a 50-50 shot at winning. So, obviously, hitting would be a horrible play -- for him. But how does that affect your chances?
If the third baseman stands like you probably want him to, and the 9 is first out of the shoe, the dealer makes 21. But if the 10 comes first, the dealer busts. Now, instead, what happens if the third baseman hits? Well, when the 9 comes first, the dealer gets the 10 and busts. But if the 10 is the first card out, the dealer makes 21 with the 9. Now, I'm going to ask you one last time. How do you want the third baseman to play his hand?
Can you see that while hitting his hand is the wrong play for Mr. 3rd Base, your odds to win remain the same no matter what he does? That's absolutely true because your chance to win really doesn't depend upon whether the 3rd baseman plays his hand right or wrong but upon which card is first out of the shoe. Many times it won't matter whether the dealer gets the first or the second card –- they'll either both make him or break him. But when it does matter, you never know which blind card you want him to get. Therefore, being all hung up over whether the 3rd baseman stands or hits is just plain silly.
Now, your immediate response to the above scenario may be that it only works this way because of the particular hypothetical situation that I've set up. Well then, go ahead and replace the dealer's hole card with any other you wish. Also replace the next two cards in the shoe with any others, as well. You'll find that whenever it makes any difference at all, it always come down to that same question of whether the first or second card out of the shoe is better for the dealer. And if you think you know the answer to that question in advance, then I want to gamble against you all day long!
 
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gobbledygeek

Well-Known Member
#10
Along similar lines of "messing up the shoe" this happened to me yesterday:

I guy is playing the lucky ladies and has a $5.00 bet on it and is dealt two Queen of Hearts, yah, 125:1 payout! But the dealer is dealt a 10 and if he makes a blackjack the guy will get paid out 1000:1 - i.e. $5000.00 on a $5.00 bet!!! The table is all cheering for this guy and everyone plays their hand and then it comes down to me at third base (just flat betting the minimum bet and playing BS). I've got a total of 5 so it's an obvious hit and I draw a 10 - whew, didn't draw the A! But at this point I really don't want to be seen as the guy at the table that screws this guy out of 5K so instead of automatically making the correct hit I just turn to him and ask him what he wants me to do. He looks at my cards and says "hit" anyways, I bust with a 10. The dealer then slowy turns over his next card, unfortunately a 2 so no blackjack.

I knew all along that I wouldn't "mess up the shoe" but in this situation I didn't want to look like the bad guy. The guy was happy enough with his $625 win, he got so excited that he ended up spilling his beer all over his chips. Plus he gave everyone else at the table $10 so it was a good time all round. :)
 

Sonny

Well-Known Member
#11
Doc said:
I made a play that some lady at the table disagreed with. She let me know she didn't like it, and then claimed I was responsible for everyone at the table losing that hand.
Just tell her "You messed up the shoe by standing. I was just trying to fix it after you screwed it up!"

-Sonny-
 

Mikeaber

Well-Known Member
#12
Sonny said:
Just tell her "You messed up the shoe by standing. I was just trying to fix it after you screwed it up!"

-Sonny-
I pretty much don't tell them a damn thing. Maybe they'll get pissed and leave! Most of the time though, it'll be me leaving soon since I play an hour or less at any one table normally. If it's close to "my time", I might make some snide remark and use it as an excuse to get up.
 

ScottH

Well-Known Member
#13
gobbledygeek said:
Along similar lines of "messing up the shoe" this happened to me yesterday:

I guy is playing the lucky ladies and has a $5.00 bet on it and is dealt two Queen of Hearts, yah, 125:1 payout! But the dealer is dealt a 10 and if he makes a blackjack the guy will get paid out 1000:1 - i.e. $5000.00 on a $5.00 bet!!! The table is all cheering for this guy and everyone plays their hand and then it comes down to me at third base (just flat betting the minimum bet and playing BS). I've got a total of 5 so it's an obvious hit and I draw a 10 - whew, didn't draw the A! But at this point I really don't want to be seen as the guy at the table that screws this guy out of 5K so instead of automatically making the correct hit I just turn to him and ask him what he wants me to do. He looks at my cards and says "hit" anyways, I bust with a 10. The dealer then slowy turns over his next card, unfortunately a 2 so no blackjack.

I knew all along that I wouldn't "mess up the shoe" but in this situation I didn't want to look like the bad guy. The guy was happy enough with his $625 win, he got so excited that he ended up spilling his beer all over his chips. Plus he gave everyone else at the table $10 so it was a good time all round. :)
You really can't mess anything up for him by drawing an ace because the dealer already has to have the ace in the hole for a blackjack.
 

gobbledygeek

Well-Known Member
#14
ScottH said:
You really can't mess anything up for him by drawing an ace because the dealer already has to have the ace in the hole for a blackjack.
Our casinos use European No Hole Card rule (dealer is dealt his 2nd and so forth cards after all players have played their hand).
 

ScottH

Well-Known Member
#15
gobbledygeek said:
Our casinos use European No Hole Card rule (dealer is dealt his 2nd and so forth cards after all players have played their hand).
I see. Even though it doesn't matter, I would ask the guy what to do just like you did. I normally don't care if I "screw the table over", but there was a lot riding on that card for that guy, so I wouldn't want to take the ace. But of course, you could always give the dealer the ace by hitting and getting a non-ace.
 

gobbledygeek

Well-Known Member
#16
ScottH said:
I see. Even though it doesn't matter, I would ask the guy what to do just like you did. I normally don't care if I "screw the table over", but there was a lot riding on that card for that guy, so I wouldn't want to take the ace. But of course, you could always give the dealer the ace by hitting and getting a non-ace.
Normally I woulda just played my hand as I usually do but I made an exception in this case and made him make the decisions for me so no blame coulda been directed my way. In the end he played my hand correctly anyways.
 

tedloc

Well-Known Member
#17
Next Time

ScottH said:
I see. Even though it doesn't matter, I would ask the guy what to do just like you did. I normally don't care if I "screw the table over", but there was a lot riding on that card for that guy, so I wouldn't want to take the ace. But of course, you could always give the dealer the ace by hitting and getting a non-ace.
Next time you get a 12 vs. the dealer 10, tell the table you are going to hit unless someone wants to buy your hand and play it. If you are playing a minimum bet, you would be suprised how many people will buy your lousy hand, so "you don't screw up the cards". I played with a guy one night, who everyone thought was a bad player, who sold his bad hands at leat 5 or 6 times. I knew that he was a counter and a very good player. This is a great way to get out of a bad hand.
 

ScottH

Well-Known Member
#18
tedloc said:
Next time you get a 12 vs. the dealer 10, tell the table you are going to hit unless someone wants to buy your hand and play it. If you are playing a minimum bet, you would be suprised how many people will buy your lousy hand, so "you don't screw up the cards". I played with a guy one night, who everyone thought was a bad player, who sold his bad hands at leat 5 or 6 times. I knew that he was a counter and a very good player. This is a great way to get out of a bad hand.
Good idea. I just sit away from third base so I am not the one to "mess up the cards".
 

ihate17

Well-Known Member
#19
Sonny said:
Just tell her "You messed up the shoe by standing. I was just trying to fix it after you screwed it up!"

-Sonny-
Messing up the shoe:
Was it messed up because of your play? It just as easily could have been messed up because someone did something 5 hands ago that no one noticed, putting the cards in the order that they are now. Anyway, how did they get into the so called, good order in the first place. It is all voodoo BS.

Quick related story:
I double a soft 18 vs a dealer 6. I get a 2, dealer turns a 5 for 11 and hits a 10. Some guy on the table go nuts but I ignore him. Next hand, the guy is still complaining to me but gets a blackjack. I say to him, "your welcome!", goes right over his head.

ihate17
 
#20
ihate17 said:
Quick related story:
I double a soft 18 vs a dealer 6. I get a 2, dealer turns a 5 for 11 and hits a 10. Some guy on the table go nuts but I ignore him. Next hand, the guy is still complaining to me but gets a blackjack. I say to him, "your welcome!", goes right over his head.
Almost the same story only the ploppy is nattering me for next two rounds, which he wins, and on the 3rd round he gets BJ and I go "Ohhh" and he says "No thanks to you," with a scowl. zg
 
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