Rebuys during high counts

[ARK]

Situation: You are spreading 25-400 in a good shoe game. You buyin for 500 dollars and with about 2 decks left (1 cut off) the count goes 10+.

You get a few max bets out there and brick them all. Now you are out of chips, the count is sky high and you need to rebuy. What's your amt to rebuy and how do you handle this with the pit? This seems to automatically wake them up: They come over to check out your rebuy, you push out a 400 dollar bet, and all of the sudden the PB isn't going anywhere for the rest of the shoe.

Would really be interested to hear the rebuy strategies used out there. I've seen some posters buyin extremely small (4 units) and while I can see the appeal, id imagine they are rebuying frequently. Are you just buying in for one max bet and sticking it all out there?

This also seems like a situation where leaving after the shoe ends is almost mandatory.

 

[aslan]

Situation: You are spreading 25-400 in a good shoe game. You buyin for 500 dollars and with about 2 decks left (1 cut off) the count goes 10+.

You get a few max bets out there and brick them all. Now you are out of chips, the count is sky high and you need to rebuy. What's your amt to rebuy and how do you handle this with the pit? This seems to automatically wake them up: They come over to check out your rebuy, you push out a 400 dollar bet, and all of the sudden the PB isn't going anywhere for the rest of the shoe.

Would really be interested to hear the rebuy strategies used out there. I've seen some posters buyin extremely small (4 units) and while I can see the appeal, id imagine they are rebuying frequently. Are you just buying in for one max bet and sticking it all out there?

This also seems like a situation where leaving after the shoe ends is almost mandatory.

I just buy what I need to put out max bets on both my hands. I try to be sensitive to heat, so that if I need to, I will only buy in for just enough for two max bets (say $400 or $500), but if I don't sense heat, I may buy in for $1,000 in case I lose both hands next round. Also, I hate buying in over and over again bringing the pit to my table repeatedly time after time. I act like a ploppy who just got caught in a whirlwind, chasing his money. I act like I was just getting ready to retire for the evening when this happened. Of course, when it is over I will retire, win or lose.

 

[paddywhack]

Situation: You are spreading 25-400 in a good shoe game. You buyin for 500 dollars and with about 2 decks left (1 cut off) the count goes 10+.

You get a few max bets out there and brick them all. Now you are out of chips, the count is sky high and you need to rebuy. What's your amt to rebuy and how do you handle this with the pit? This seems to automatically wake them up: They come over to check out your rebuy, you push out a 400 dollar bet, and all of the sudden the PB isn't going anywhere for the rest of the shoe.

Would really be interested to hear the rebuy strategies used out there. I've seen some posters buyin extremely small (4 units) and while I can see the appeal, id imagine they are rebuying frequently. Are you just buying in for one max bet and sticking it all out there?

This also seems like a situation where leaving after the shoe ends is almost mandatory.

I'll buy in for my max bets and put them on the felt. If I lose it, I do it again. If I win and the count's still good I leave them out there.

At this point the pit is really interested in what's going on anyway so most likely I'm out of there at the end of that shoe.

BTW that sounds an awful lot like my last two sessions. Max bet loss after max bet loss with the pit there watching the carnage.

 

[kewljason]

Re-buying and betting bigger during a high count is no problem. Just the fact that you are re-buying means you have lost some and now rebuying and betting bigger just looks like you are chasing. Very common among ploppies.

The bigger problem is what to do if you are sitting there with $75 or $100 bucks in chips and the count suddenly rises and you want to throw out $400. What do you do then? A masive jump is suspicious enough. Re-buying more chips to do so is suicide.

This is one of the downsides to my style of play, where I initially buy in small. Buying in small (4-8 units) works well for cover as the pit often immediately dismisses me, but unfortunately, this exact situation happens all too frequently. :sad:

 

[newbctr]

At the stakes you guys are playing, no one is going to give you heat while you are LOSING unless they have super good survilliance, in which case you are bound to get caught anyway. Even that is rare. If you have one deck left to play, buy 2 rounds worth of big bets, whether that's 4 bets if you are playing 2 hands or 2 bets if you are playing 1. At least then you can double down/split/insurance on the first round and probably the second. I don't see an $800 REBUY raising red flags just about anywhere

 

[jaygruden]

Initial buy-in guideline I use it 40 x min bet (for my spread this is usually 2.5 x my max bet). If I need to rebuy during big count where I'm getting hammered I use same buy-in (40 x min).

I agree that it tends to look like a gambler getting out of control and chasing losses and think it helps if Pit saw you losing big bets before you rebought. I leave table at end of shoe whether up or down and either leave casino or take a long break outside then come into a new pit because it does draw uneeded attention to your play. One time on the next hand right after a re-buy I hit a BJ with a $400 bet out and the PB was staring at me like I was a one legged bearded lady from the freak shore at the carnival and shot those lasers at me until the end of the shoe. I high-tailed it right after and took a long hiatus from that store.

On a related note.....the worst feeling ever was running out of money completely in middle of huge count. Was having a bad day and playing my 3rd session of the day after 2 losing sessions earlier. I was losing my big bets and went bust. I sprinted to the ATM only to find the shoe over by the time I got back and most players had big stacks of chips in front of them. It was a MSE table and they wouldn't wait until I returned. I now take much more coin with me than I think I will need and try to buy-in for more than I think I will need for the session.

 

[aslan]

At the stakes you guys are playing, no one is going to give you heat while you are LOSING unless they have super good survilliance, in which case you are bound to get caught anyway. Even that is rare. If you have one deck left to play, buy 2 rounds worth of big bets, whether that's 4 bets if you are playing 2 hands or 2 bets if you are playing 1. At least then you can double down/split/insurance on the first round and probably the second. I don't see an $800 REBUY raising red flags just about anywhere

I always feign dismay when I get a double down or a split and I have to buy in once again just to cover this "unwelcome" occurrence. :grin: "I thought I was playing my last hand, and now you suck me in one more time!" :cry::whip::laugh:

 

[winnawinna]

Rebuys

Situation: You are spreading 25-400 in a good shoe game. You buyin for 500 dollars and with about 2 decks left (1 cut off) the count goes 10+.

You get a few max bets out there and brick them all. Now you are out of chips, the count is sky high and you need to rebuy. What's your amt to rebuy and how do you handle this with the pit? This seems to automatically wake them up: They come over to check out your rebuy, you push out a 400 dollar bet, and all of the sudden the PB isn't going anywhere for the rest of the shoe.

Would really be interested to hear the rebuy strategies used out there. I've seen some posters buyin extremely small (4 units) and while I can see the appeal, id imagine they are rebuying frequently. Are you just buying in for one max bet and sticking it all out there?

This also seems like a situation where leaving after the shoe ends is almost mandatory.

I just rebuy the same amount as I bought in...usually $1000. I never got heat for any of them. Maybe in Vegas its different but out here on the East Coast, $1000+ buy ins are the norm

 

[kewljason]

At the stakes you guys are playing, no one is going to give you heat while you are LOSING unless they have super good survilliance, in which case you are bound to get caught anyway. Even that is rare. If you have one deck left to play, buy 2 rounds worth of big bets, whether that's 4 bets if you are playing 2 hands or 2 bets if you are playing 1. At least then you can double down/split/insurance on the first round and probably the second. I don't see an $800 REBUY raising red flags just about anywhere

First of all, where did you ever get the impression that you are immune from heat if you are losing? Of the 9 or 10 times that I have been backed off during my career, all most all have come during or at the end of losing sessions. Usually significantly losing sessions. :sad: Big losing sessions usually means you have exposed your full spread and were vulnerable. You just weren't lucky enough to have won doing so. Other players I have spoke with, have found similar. I think it gives casino personel even greater pleasure to have just kicked your ass and then kick you out. I believe Mr Zender mentioned this in one of his interviews as well.

Second, what is with this "at the stakes you guys are playing" crap? You are going to talk down to us like $400, $500, $600 wagers are nothing? You who started with a bankroll of ZERO and built 50 grand from promotional money? :laugh::laugh: What kind of stakes are you supposedly playing these days? all 5 figure wagers? :laugh:

 

[newbctr]

KJ,

I noticed you often twist the meaning of things people say and put words in peoples mouth. I didn't say you were IMMUNE - but that it was highly unlikely for places that dont monitor games well. There are MANY places I play on the east coast that don't have a clue about counting - trust me, I can tell. These are the places that will only back you off after a cummulative win, which is what happend to me once... and I later found out that the same casino, which has ZERO clue, backed off a progressive player who hit big a few times. Casinos like this, which might be more rare where you play, WILL NOT back off a loser. Of course I know that some casinos back off losers often - had that experience too - my post alluded to it.

And yes, the only person you are fooling regarding stakes is yourself... $400/500/600 is a lot of money to me & and you, but a drop in the hat at most major casinos. Major strip casinos don't care about bets these small, which is why you have a job making ~ $50 an hour. I was not "talking down" to anyone (once again, words put in my mouth). I played a $50 unit often, and ALSO found my action meaningless at MOST casinos I played (I avoided going back to the ones that generally cared about this action). Most strip casinos are owned by publicly traded firms with a market cap > $5B. Their accountants routinely perform rounding adjustments and estimates well into the millions. Your Action MIGHT take them for $20,000 each in one year, with a corresponding loss that is MORE for people just smart enough to know that Blackjack is beatable by counting but not good enough to actually win. And that's for YOU - probably a top player on this board and defin top if you include hours played. Other players betting $500 max with fewer hours than you are MEANINGLESS to MOST casinos bottom line, and unless the criteria I presented hold true, don't pose ANY threat when losing.

 

[blackjack avenger]

i agree with most

Buy in for what you need, perhaps 1 more bet to cover Double, spl or ins. If smaller bets.

You don't want potential cage heat/pay refusal which is area specific & increases with $ amount. Also, u don't want chip stacks in front of you.

One can try to manipulate their bets so they have 2 or 3 bets in front of them most of the time. Slows things down for a $10 buy in to finish a $200 spl. Chip management is important for speed of play.

If one is consistently caught with not enough chips in front of them, they need to buy in more, or bet up a bit early to win more chips or force a larger buy in if they lose.

If being rated tend to buy big enough to ensure its recorded. If unrated small buys so one can be agile.

 

[ARK]

Re-buying and betting bigger during a high count is no problem. Just the fact that you are re-buying means you have lost some and now rebuying and betting bigger just looks like you are chasing. Very common among ploppies.

The bigger problem is what to do if you are sitting there with $75 or $100 bucks in chips and the count suddenly rises and you want to throw out $400. What do you do then? A masive jump is suspicious enough. Re-buying more chips to do so is suicide.

This is one of the downsides to my style of play, where I initially buy in small. Buying in small (4-8 units) works well for cover as the pit often immediately dismisses me, but unfortunately, this exact situation happens all too frequently. :sad:

KJ, glad you chimed in. I was going through some old threads and saw you mention about you buying in for 4 units which i thought was pretty interesting and smart in terms of heat. It's probably not worth it at my local stores where sometimes $25 tables are in the high limit room! But it's definitely something I may try in bigger stores where its easier to stay anonymous.

That being said, you brought up my concern about not being able to spread the right size bets. Do you just bet all your chips until you bust or have enough for the right bet size?

 

[ARK]

At the stakes you guys are playing, no one is going to give you heat while you are LOSING unless they have super good survilliance, in which case you are bound to get caught anyway. Even that is rare. If you have one deck left to play, buy 2 rounds worth of big bets, whether that's 4 bets if you are playing 2 hands or 2 bets if you are playing 1. At least then you can double down/split/insurance on the first round and probably the second. I don't see an $800 REBUY raising red flags just about anywhere

I think the idea is not that an 800 dollar rebuy causes red flags. It's that when the pit comes over to record your buyin, you push out a 400 dollar bet when the FIRST time you bought in, you were betting 25 or 50 a hand. Your rebuy is not alarming but it brings the pit to the table just as a matter of process - the betting amount is what attracts the heat.

 

[newbctr]

a pit boss watching you after you rebuy is NOT heat. It is a pit boss watching your average bet for ratings purposes most of the time. 90% of pit bosses I encounter don't even know B.S. and of those 90%, most know just enough B.S. plays to know that I'm not even playing that. I have had this exact situation happen to me MANY MANY times, and it only raised red flags ONCE (which like I said, was at a place that monitors for counters very very well)... and even there, people on these boards routinely play and no one else reported problems. I was playing heavy black that day spreading over 1k. At big shops, I have had shoes go against me where I bought in for $1000 FIVE STRAIGHT hands, in the high limit room heads up.

The stuff about heat is over rated - find a place that isn't smart enough to catch counters, and play super long sessions while pocketing chips if you win. Push the limits. I could name AT LEAST 5 casinos on the east cost that won't blink in eye with max bets < $1000.

Heat has to be specific, or it's not "heat." A pit boss watching every hand doesn't count.... I'd be worried about getting half shoed, a comment being made, phone calls while being stared at, a game being halted when you are rebuying, etc. a pit boss watching $400 bets is NOT heat, or else KJ would be living off food stamps

 

[aslan]

a pit boss watching you after you rebuy is NOT heat. It is a pit boss watching your average bet for ratings purposes most of the time. 90% of pit bosses I encounter don't even know B.S. and of those 90%, most know just enough B.S. plays to know that I'm not even playing that. I have had this exact situation happen to me MANY MANY times, and it only raised red flags ONCE (which like I said, was at a place that monitors for counters very very well)... and even there, people on these boards routinely play and no one else reported problems. I was playing heavy black that day spreading over 1k. At big shops, I have had shoes go against me where I bought in for $1000 FIVE STRAIGHT hands, in the high limit room heads up.

The stuff about heat is over rated - find a place that isn't smart enough to catch counters, and play super long sessions while pocketing chips if you win. Push the limits. I could name AT LEAST 5 casinos on the east cost that won't blink in eye with max bets < $1000.

Heat has to be specific, or it's not "heat." A pit boss watching every hand doesn't count.... I'd be worried about getting half shoed, a comment being made, phone calls while being stared at, a game being halted when you are rebuying, etc. a pit boss watching $400 bets is NOT heat, or else KJ would be living off food stamps

Large casinos may have players who routinely bet $10,000 a hand-- Arabian sheiks, large corporate CEOs, business tycoons, movie moguls, sports stars, etc. It's hard for them to get excited over a black chip bettor, even if they have a crack surveillance team.

They may even know you are a counter, but since your game appears weak or your betting is restrained, they may tolerate your play. If, however, even at one of these casinos that don't consider you much of a risk, you begin winning in excess of a mere $1,000, they may back you off before you get lucky and make a significant win. Yes, you are just a flea on their back, but they don't want to encourage you either. They have to draw a line somewhere.

Another strategy with known counters, especially if they don't particularly like you (your style of play, your seeming attitude, etc.), is to wait until you are losing a good bit, then back you off making you eat your losses. But usually it's when you exceed whatever they set as a tolerable win level, even though, as I said before, it is still insignificant to their bottom line.

Also, if you are a large bettor playing rated, with a minimum bet of $100 or more, and they evaluate you as a poor counter, they may let you play for years. Why not? They know the instant you hit the tables and if you suddenly "improve" (which is not likely) they have the prerogative to back you off.

 

[blackjack avenger]

yes & no

a pit boss watching you after you rebuy is NOT heat. It is a pit boss watching your average bet for ratings purposes most of the time. 90% of pit bosses I encounter don't even know B.S. and of those 90%, most know just enough B.S. plays to know that I'm not even playing that. I have had this exact situation happen to me MANY MANY times, and it only raised red flags ONCE (which like I said, was at a place that monitors for counters very very well)... and even there, people on these boards routinely play and no one else reported problems. I was playing heavy black that day spreading over 1k. At big shops, I have had shoes go against me where I bought in for $1000 FIVE STRAIGHT hands, in the high limit room heads up.

The stuff about heat is over rated - find a place that isn't smart enough to catch counters, and play super long sessions while pocketing chips if you win. Push the limits. I could name AT LEAST 5 casinos on the east cost that won't blink in eye with max bets < $1000.

Heat has to be specific, or it's not "heat." A pit boss watching every hand doesn't count.... I'd be worried about getting half shoed, a comment being made, phone calls while being stared at, a game being halted when you are rebuying, etc. a pit boss watching $400 bets is NOT heat, or else KJ would be living off food stamps

Like everything else, if it cannot be answered by a sim. The answer is yes, no & it depends. A pit is suppose to notice all/near all buy ins. The larger ones he does have to watch or ok so there are no errors. However, with the large buy in you are noticed, which is the first step to heat.

This is why red chippers have little to fear, even the buy in can be under the radar.

The broad general statements:
Bigger your buy in
Bigger the Chip stack in front of you
Bigger you bets
More attention which can become heat.
Above is situation dependent. A big variable is the action around you.

 

[Friendo]

Looking like the winner you aren't

Then there are the shoes which start well: count quickly hits max-bet territory. The problem is that you don't win, so you buy in again for a couple of max bets.

1. Stiffs for you and multi-card 21s for the dealer means continued high counts
2. Buy in again
3. Return to step 1

Finally, on the last few hands, with the count now somewhere between the International Space Station and geosynchronous orbit, you win a few, and sit there, peeking out from behind a substantial pile of chips representing half your buy-in.

@$(%@$%^@#%!

Unless the pit carefully tracked all your buy-ins, you now look like a big winner , having started with a small buy-in, even though you paid $50 for every green chip in front of you.

Gack!

 

[aslan]

Then there are the shoes which start well: count quickly hits max-bet territory. The problem is that you don't win, so you buy in again for a couple of max bets.

1. Stiffs for you and multi-card 21s for the dealer means continued high counts
2. Buy in again
3. Return to step 1

Finally, on the last few hands, with the count now somewhere between the International Space Station and geosynchronous orbit, you win a few, and sit there, peeking out from behind a substantial pile of chips representing half your buy-in.

@$(%@$%^@#%!

Unless the pit carefully tracked all your buy-ins, you now look like a big winner , having started with a small buy-in, even though you paid $50 for every green chip in front of you.

Gack!

Gack! is right! I am very careful that the pit person gives recognition to each of my buy-ins, and since one often turns it around by shoe end, I am stuffing greens in my pockets whenever I can. I want to look like a loser even when I am winning if at all possible.

 

[winnawinna]

Gack! is right! I am very careful that the pit person gives recognition to each of my buy-ins, and since one often turns it around by shoe end, I am stuffing greens in my pockets whenever I can. I want to look like a loser even when I am winning if at all possible.

Why pocket chips when they are recorded anyway. I always play rated so they know how many chips I bought in for and how many I have won. "New" is right, heat is overrated especially here on the East Coast. My $500 dollar bet is nothing. Many times I have seen guys play a full table all to him self spreading to table max w/o any problems at all.

 

[aslan]

Why pocket chips when they are recorded anyway. I always play rated so they know how many chips I bought in for and how many I have won. "New" is right, heat is overrated especially here on the East Coast. My $500 dollar bet is nothing. Many times I have seen guys play a full table all to him self spreading to table max w/o any problems at all.

I pocket chips because I do not want the casino to know that I am a consistent winner at blackjack. All the casino knows is the amount of my buy in. In the course of winning and losing hands, the casino does not know whether I am a net winner or loser. When I color up, they count my chips and record that amount against my buy in to determine whether I won or lost. The American casinos I have played at do not track green and red chips, only black and above.