RoR Question

Lowrider

Well-Known Member
#1
All,

Love the forum!

Need some advice on RoR and my plan of attack for this very good game:

$25 min bet DAS NORSA ES DA2 S17 6 decks 85% to 90% pen

My calculations put the house edge on this at .20%

I have

High Lo counting

SPREAD = 1 to 10
Tc 1 2 units
Tc 2 5 units
Tc 3 10 units

Using BS I18 F4

QUESTIONS
1. How is my ramp?

2. How is my spread? Can I get away with a lower spread to lower my RoR?

3. What is my RoR?

4. Is $8k with this game plan OK? I know I'm under rolled but if I have near 70% or more chance of profit I'm fine with that.

Thanks!
 
#2
ES or ES10

I think you would have a big advantage straight off the top of the shoe if your rules are right. Can you surrender versus an ace?
 

Lowrider

Well-Known Member
#6
I'm almost positive the game is exactly .19 house edge using just BS...I'm not 100% whether it's ES10 or ES ANY... as I can't specifically remember surrendering to an ace but do remember several time surrendering to a 10 ... I am certain of the other criteria
 

Lowrider

Well-Known Member
#7
One of the dealers even cut the 6 deck shoe a few times to about 5 cards only...it was sick that I still lost...most of the time they cut .75 of a deck off...sometimes .50 and never more than 1 deck
 

Midwestern

Well-Known Member
#8
with an

Lowrider said:
All,


$25 min bet DAS NORSA ES DA2 S17 6 decks 85% to 90% pen

HI-Lo
SPREAD = 1 to 10
Tc 1 2 units
Tc 2 5 units
Tc 3 10 units

1. How is my ramp?

2. How is my spread? Can I get away with a lower spread to lower my RoR?

3. What is my RoR?

4. Is $8k with this game plan OK? I know I'm under rolled but if I have near 70% or more chance of profit I'm fine with that.

Thanks!
Ramp- Good for your spread

Spread- good if you wong. this game looks like very favorable rules so you don't need a 16-1 spread to beat it. i wouldnt go less than 1-10 though because you'd be eating into your profits.

Your lifetime ROR with an 8k bank, spreading $25-$250 will be high..depending on how many hours you play... I'd estimate your ROR to be around 16-20%

you're thinking about it wrong. there is NEVER a 70% chance of profit. what you have is a 16-20% chance of going completely bust... which is the same as an 84-80% chance of ending up with at least $1 left. just explaining the math.... if you play enough hours, your chances of breaking even should increase to around 75%.

now that we've figured out all the ways you can lose, you just have to hope for favorable variance to take you the rest of the way!
 
#9
Midwestern said:
with an



Ramp- Good for your spread

Spread- good if you wong. this game looks like very favorable rules so you don't need a 16-1 spread to beat it. i wouldnt go less than 1-10 though because you'd be eating into your profits.

Your lifetime ROR with an 8k bank, spreading $25-$250 will be high..depending on how many hours you play... I'd estimate your ROR to be around 16-20%

you're thinking about it wrong. there is NEVER a 70% chance of profit. what you have is a 16-20% chance of going completely bust... which is the same as an 84-80% chance of ending up with at least $1 left. just explaining the math.... if you play enough hours, your chances of breaking even should increase to around 75%.

now that we've figured out all the ways you can lose, you just have to hope for favorable variance to take you the rest of the way!

Ive never read a definition for RoR but I always thought it was the probability of going bust before you double your BR. I would love to hear from others if I am wrong.
 

Midwestern

Well-Known Member
#10
tthree said:
Ive never read a definition for RoR but I always thought it was the probability of going bust before you double your BR. I would love to hear from others if I am wrong.
my definition of ROR is the probabiliy that negative variance will exceed your bankroll.

basically, i find the Standard deviation of a particular players betramp, then i use a normal distribution chart to figure out how many standard deviations to the left would cause the bankroll to go bust. The area under that curve PLUS 50% is = (1-ROR). so thats how i find the ROR.
 

bj21abc

Well-Known Member
#11
How did you reach 0.22 ??

6 decks -0.54%
Early surrender against ace 0.39%
Early surrender against ten 0.24%

=> 0.09% player advantage (if not ENHC)


Canceler said:
Looks more like a PLAYER edge of about .22%. You can see why people have a hard time believing this. :)
 

Midwestern

Well-Known Member
#12
i dont think that your method of using a target of doubling the BR is bad, however, but i feel like that gives somewhat of a skewed result.

i think my version of ROR is.

it all has to do with hands played. The Standard deviation will be higher for MORE HANDS played than for LESS hands played. obviously the standard deviaton across infinity hands will be infinity, so using your target of doubling BR is a good way to make this problem finite.

i will walk you through my math so that you know where im coming from.

assume your bankroll is $10,000 and your average bet is 50 dollars. As an AP you have a "general" advantage of 1%, so for each hand we play, we have an expectation of profit of 50 cents. Therefore we need to play 20,000 hands to achieve an expected profit of $10,000.

20,000 hands in a year is about 6.5 hours of play per week (at 60 hands/hour)

This 10,000 will be the MEAN point of a normal distribution chart (that we will talk about later). Please remember that the more hands you play, the higher this mean is. If you play zero hands, your Mean will be Zero. If you play 100 hands your mean will be 5 bucks.

the next step is calculating a standard deviation for this particular player with bankroll $10,000. this is where you mix a little bit of art with science.

The equation i use to calculate STDEV is (square root of hands played) x (average bet) x 1.1

i use 1.1 becuase that is what Don Schlesinger says is the standard devation in units per hand of blackjack.

to find average bet, i assume something between TC 1 and TC2 bet. (note, i still assume a small bet for TC 1, like 1 or 2 units, because there's not actually player edge at those levels)

the STDEV for the player above should be $7,778.175 ~~ $8,000. so after 20,000 hands, if he has 1 standard devation of negative variance he should have a bankroll of $10,000 + (10,000-8000) = 12,000. Two standard devations of negative variance and he would have a expected remaining bankroll of $4,000.

Now if you start with an expectation of zero (i.e. zero is the mean, not 10k) it would only take about 1.25 standard deviations of negative variance (across 20,000 hands) to wipe out the original 10k. 1.25 stdev on the normal distribution chart covers about 75% of the probability (accounting for positive AND negative variance). So accounting for only negative variance, that means that a 10k bankroll with this kind of stdev has a 12.5% ROR.
 

MangoJ

Well-Known Member
#13
That is a rough estimate of RoR, but it is okay to use. But please notice that your real RoR will be somewhat higher.
The problem with this type of calculation is, that you ignore the natural "stop" after breaking your bank.
The normal distribution gives you your expected bankroll distribution after 20,000 hands only if you do play 20,000 hands.

Say you are broke after 5000 hands, in reality you don't get the chance of digging yourself out of negative with additional 15,000 hands to play (and thus getting the chance of ending in positives). Hence your real RoR is higher than this normal distribution estimate.
 

Lowrider

Well-Known Member
#14
OK, I'm great at math for a layman but can't handle you guys...lol...

Can someone who is confident in their numbers just give me the layman answer to this question....

I have an $8K bankroll playing the game described above in this string....if I play until I have $30K TOTAL - inclusive of initial bankroll - or BUST what are the chances I get to $30K v. BUST....AS THESE ARE THE ONLY TWO POSSIBLE OUTCOMES.

THANKS
 
#15
50/50

either you go Bust or you Make it.. ;)

Perhaps your asking if your a favorite or not to make it to 30K. How long do you have to achieve your goal?
 

Sonny

Well-Known Member
#17
But you can't use standard deviation to find RoR. Schlesinger has a great explanation of this in his book.

Midwestern said:
the STDEV for the player above should be $7,778.175 ~~ $8,000. so after 20,000 hands, if he has 1 standard devation of negative variance he should have a bankroll of $10,000 + (10,000-8000) = 12,000. Two standard devations of negative variance and he would have a expected remaining bankroll of $4,000.
But that assumes that the player doesn't drop below that point somewhere during those 20,000 hands, which is not realistic. He could lose $12k during the first 10,000 hands only to win some of it back, which would leave him at -2 SDs in the end even though his lowest point was below that. You can't look at the SD of the end point, you have to look at the lowest point of the entire series of hands. That requires much more math (or some help from Don and Qfit).

http://www.qfit.com/CVRoRC.htm

-Sonny-
 
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