Rudest backoff yet

[kewljason]

This is where they try to label you with the very vague 'creating a disturbance' and 'disorderly conduct' charges.

One of my early trips to Vegas I encountered this. At the time I camped out longer out tables than I do now, but I was only a red to green player, so figured I was ok. Well two dudes, one in a suit the other not had, me step away from the table and go with them. On the way I told the suit guy, that he had no legal right to detain me as I hadn't done anything illegal. He replied creating a disturbance. I was scared sh*tless but said something like 'good, I could use a big payday from XXX'. He turned, smiled and said, good luck finding an attorney in this town. I replied, "My brother is an attorney". I never made it to the back room. We walked a little further and then he just turned and said "get out of here and don't come back". I ran like hell. My brother was in 3rd grade at the time.

And I probably play at that particular casino more today than any other in town. haven't had any other problems and never have seen that suit guy again.

 

[Automatic Monkey]

This is where they try to label you with the very vague 'creating a disturbance' and 'disorderly conduct' charges.

One of my early trips to Vegas I encountered this. At the time I camped out longer out tables than I do now, but I was only a red to green player, so figured I was ok. Well two dudes, one in a suit the other not had, me step away from the table and go with them. On the way I told the suit guy, that he had no legal right to detain me as I hadn't done anything illegal. He replied creating a disturbance. I was scared sh*tless but said something like 'good, I could use a big payday from XXX'. He turned, smiled and said, good luck finding an attorney in this town. I replied, "My brother is an attorney". I never made it to the back room. We walked a little further and then he just turned and said "get out of here and don't come back". I ran like hell. My brother was in 3rd grade at the time.

And I probably play at that particular casino more today than any other in town. haven't had any other problems and never have seen that suit guy again.

The answer to that is "I'm leaving- how can I create a disturbance by leaving? Please don't create a disturbance by trying to prevent me from leaving."

By the way those charges aren't that vague, at least not in my state. It requires conduct that would cause alarm, fear, disgust, apprehension, etc. in a typical person who is not a police officer (in other words, the cop can't be the only one offended.) Being AP is done silently and secretly it is by definition excluded.

 

[BJgenius007]

I am sure LV Strip casinos only back off people who spread $100 to $800 on their DD BJ. For people who play red/green chips or shoe game only, you have nothing to worry about. I play at green chip level, never experience any heat I read here. NEVER. EVER.

Have you ever played in Reno?

Keywords: LV Strip, DD, spread.

This is my experience in the Strip:

Shoe game spread $25 to $400: OK

You might have trouble to spread $100 to $1600 on shoe game.

You might have trouble to spread $25 to $200 on DD.

Again I emphasize this applies to large casinos in the Strip only.

So green/red chippers, you have nothing to worry about, playing in the Strip.

 

[moo321]

This varies wildly from state to state.

My post was in reference to Nevada.

 

[dilbert46]

It is False Arrest if they take the position that you were handcuffed because you were an Advantage Player - but NOT False Arrest if they claim that they believed that you had a BJ computer hidden in your shoe or an iPhone (with a particular app installed) in your pocket, or had stolen chips, or you were a bail-jumper, etc..

An arrest, even a "citizen's arrest", does not carry a burden of proof — only "reasonable suspicion"

However, if they refuse to summon the police, with reasonable dispatch, upon your demand … than you have a CIVIL CASE charging Unlawful Imprisonment. A criminal case would never pass muster with a Grand Jury, so an Attorney General is unlikely to present the case to a Grand Jury in the first place.

Admittingly, as a newbie player I know little about AP playing. But being a police officer myself, I may be able to shed a little light on this topic.

I think the difference is in semantics: "arrest" vs "detainment". Yes, to "arrest" someone a police officer needs "probable cause" as defined by "a crime has occurred and the person being being arrested 'more likely than not' committed said crime." Note: this is not the same burden of proof needed for a conviction - "beyond a reasonable doubt."

For "detainment" an officer needs "reasobable suspicion" that "a crime has occurred, is occurring, is about to occur" in order to temporarily restrict someone's freedom. This is a lower burden of proof, however there is a time limit as to how long an officer has to either develop PC or let you go. This called a "Terry Stop" and in my state I get about 20 minutes to make PC before we have to let the person go.

Also in my state, this "detainment" is the same statutory power that security guards get in order hold you until the po-po get there. If you have committed a crime (e.g. Shoplifitng, assault), security presents this information to the police and the officer develops PC to arrest you. I think what Flash and some of the others are saying is don't allow security to turn this "detainment" period for the non-crime of counting into an PC "arrest" for something else by committing disorderly conduct, assault, whatever (or the planting thing like Auto Monkey suggested).

Disclaimer: I am not a Nevada officer so I cant speak with absolute authority for what happens there, but the basic rules are generally the same for all of us.

 

[Dyepaintball12]

I see what you guys are saying about casinos trying to label you as "a disturbance" or "causing a scene" but if you legit are just playing quietly and calmly I feel like you would have the casino tapes to prove you in fact were doing nothing of the sort.

So they would be literally holding you against your will for no reason.

 

[dilbert46]

I see what you guys are saying about casinos trying to label you as "a disturbance" or "causing a scene" but if you legit are just playing quietly and calmly I feel like you would have the casino tapes to prove you in fact were doing nothing of the sort.

So they would be literally holding you against your will for no reason.

From your perspective: you were not cheating and they are holding you against your will.

From their perspective: they get an opportunity to hold you and see if you really were cheating (by some other means) because they have the "reasonable suspicion" that you were.

Whose perspective is right is often determined in court (civil or criminal).

 

[Automatic Monkey]

From your perspective: you were not cheating and they are holding you against your will.

From their perspective: they get an opportunity to hold you and see if you really were cheating (by some other means) because they have the "reasonable suspicion" that you were.

Whose perspective is right is often determined in court (civil or criminal).

I'm interested in how much the law expects me to cooperate with a correct/incorrect detention by a security guard. I realize I cannot resist arrest by a police officer even if he is mistaken in his belief of PC, but what happens when a security guard tries to handcuff me because I was counting and he thinks that's cheating, and I drop him on his head on the way out the door? Even if I was doing something illegal, I don't know what that security guard's background and motivation really is, he does not represent the law and could be a felon himself, and I'd feel justified in physically defending myself from detention by one.

 

[kewljason]

From your perspective: you were not cheating and they are holding you against your will.

From their perspective: they get an opportunity to hold you and see if you really were cheating (by some other means) because they have the "reasonable suspicion" that you were.

Whose perspective is right is often determined in court (civil or criminal).

No that's not correct. If they have been watching you enough to make the decision to back you off or ban you, then they know exactly what you were doing. While they may not like your activities, it is not cheating and not illegal and they have no right to detain you. They also are well aware of that fact by now, so they are just attempting to intimidate and bully you.

For the most part, I think these activities are down as casinos have slowly learned that lesson, but if some slow learning casino goon tries to back room you, I would make him aware that you know he has no right to. I'd even go as far as to snap his picture if need be. You can preset your phone to send at the push of a button. Snap - send. Boom Boom. 2 buttons. Even if they confiscate your phone, which is also illegal, the picture is already gone.

 

[moo321]

I'm interested in how much the law expects me to cooperate with a correct/incorrect detention by a security guard. I realize I cannot resist arrest by a police officer even if he is mistaken in his belief of PC, but what happens when a security guard tries to handcuff me because I was counting and he thinks that's cheating, and I drop him on his head on the way out the door? Even if I was doing something illegal, I don't know what that security guard's background and motivation really is, he does not represent the law and could be a felon himself, and I'd feel justified in physically defending myself from detention by one.

My interpretation of the law is that you would be justified in resisting a false arrest. I don't think you have any duty to comply with their detention.

However, it may not be the best course of action. Your best bet is to try to leave, be totally nonviolent, and set up a tort. Head for the door, make them tackle you in front of civilians, cry, ask why they're kidnapping you "I just want to leave, let me go home!". Don't yell, though.

 

[dilbert46]

No that's not correct. If they have been watching you enough to make the decision to back you off or ban you, then they know exactly what you were doing. While they may not like your activities, it is not cheating and not illegal and they have no right to detain you. They also are well aware of that fact by now, so they are just attempting to intimidate and bully you.

For the most part, I think these activities are down as casinos have slowly learned that lesson, but if some slow learning casino goon tries to back room you, I would make him aware that you know he has no right to. I'd even go as far as to snap his picture if need be. You can preset your phone to send at the push of a button. Snap - send. Boom Boom. 2 buttons. Even if they confiscate your phone, which is also illegal, the picture is already gone.

Guys, dont get me wrong: I agree with you. We know its not illegal. They know its not illegal. But if in the process of vehemently defending your rights you punch the security guy out (for example) then that certainly muddys up the situation. They will say they now have PC for the police to arrest you for assault when you hit them while they were simply doing their job and thought you were cheating (after some made up excuse). Now this is total crap and not the truth and ultimately you may prevail in a criminal court (or you may not) but one has to consider what you went through to get to that point. I suspect over the years counters in situations like this have prevailed in criminal court and then they sue in civil court and prevail there as well - in the form of a hefty payout. I also suspect this is the reason this scenario doesn't happen as often as it may have in the past and why most backoffs are the way they are now. Like I said, I agree with you're saying and you are not breaking any laws by counting. I'm just saying be careful on how physically you defend your rights.

 

[Dyepaintball12]

From now on I'm just going to yell "I need an adult! I need an adult!"

 

[Buchana3]

backed off

being a female, I've never really been backed off no matter how much I bet. The worst that has been done to me.. is occassionally a pit boss, or someone will say ..the count is X .. to which I reply that's nice if you understand it.

I have had them literally stop the game and do a count of the cards that were played at the Monte Caro.. but they allowed me to continue playing.. I was incredibly amused.

On one of my luckier nights.. after an especially bad two days of play at other casinos.. I did walk into Harrahs with 300$ .. sat down a a black chip min, in high limit, and walked out 6 hours later with 16K. My favorite would be when people would ask the pit what I started with .. and she would say 3 .. and they would say.. 3K.. that's not bad ..and the pit would respond.. no.. 300.

Security would walk by and stand behind me, an I politefully pretended like I didn't notice.
Maybe I have an advantage.

 

[moo321]

being a female, I've never really been backed off no matter how much I bet.

I hate you.

 

[Blue Efficacy]

being a female, I've never really been backed off no matter how much I bet. The worst that has been done to me.. is occassionally a pit boss, or someone will say ..the count is X .. to which I reply that's nice if you understand it.

I have had them literally stop the game and do a count of the cards that were played at the Monte Caro.. but they allowed me to continue playing.. I was incredibly amused.

On one of my luckier nights.. after an especially bad two days of play at other casinos.. I did walk into Harrahs with 300$ .. sat down a a black chip min, in high limit, and walked out 6 hours later with 16K. My favorite would be when people would ask the pit what I started with .. and she would say 3 .. and they would say.. 3K.. that's not bad ..and the pit would respond.. no.. 300.

Security would walk by and stand behind me, an I politefully pretended like I didn't notice.
Maybe I have an advantage.

Maybe you're not a good AP so they let you play.

A good AP wouldn't piss away $300 (in theory) be sitting down at a black chip table. One split with a double down afterwards and you're toast. Even if you are using advanced AP this is [basically] flushing away $300, you got very very lucky.

If you were a real threat the casino wouldn't be keen on letting you play after counting down the discards for you. Such overt heat such as that or "the count is x" is a sign that you're either too poor or too small a player to be a real threat, but they want you to know that your skilled play is not unnoticed.

 

[eandre]

Over the years, I have been backed off numerous times and suggest that if you approach it with a smile and remember that BJ is a gentleman's game, then problems normally will not occur. Remember, the management is expecting confrontation when none is really necessary. They are not concerned with how much you got them for...at least not at the moment they are backing you off...but rather they are employees doing their jobs. In fact, once I had a table max bet up when I got tapped, I requested the dealer to pause, was politely backed off, and I nicely asked if we could finish the hand since cards were out, I did and won...how nice. If the Aria is being a little tight, it's probably because it's a newer property trying to reach profitabily as quickly as possible.

 

[Automatic Monkey]

Maybe you're not a good AP so they let you play.

A good AP wouldn't piss away $300 (in theory) be sitting down at a black chip table. One split with a double down afterwards and you're toast. Even if you are using advanced AP this is [basically] flushing away $300, you got very very lucky.

If you were a real threat the casino wouldn't be keen on letting you play after counting down the discards for you. Such overt heat such as that or "the count is x" is a sign that you're either too poor or too small a player to be a real threat, but they want you to know that your skilled play is not unnoticed.

You don't have enough information to say the things you are saying.

The correct answer is: if her bust to waistline ratio is high enough and if they believe there is even a remote chance they will get a piece of it, they will let her play with an advantage. Everything we do is all about getting laid anyway. This is the way the world works. 90% of what a female can get away with and 10% of what a male can get away with is based on how they look.

 

[kewljason]

You don't have enough information to say the things you are saying.

The correct answer is: if her bust to waistline ratio is high enough and if they believe there is even a remote chance they will get a piece of it, they will let her play with an advantage. Everything we do is all about getting laid anyway. This is the way the world works. 90% of what a female can get away with and 10% of what a male can get away with is based on how they look.

You are one funny monkey. :laugh: I think that as time goes on this is becoming less and less true. No matter what line of work they are in, advances in technology are making every move, every action, every decision by workers reviewable, and they may now be held accountable for such things.

 

[Blue Efficacy]

You don't have enough information to say the things you are saying.

The correct answer is: if her bust to waistline ratio is high enough and if they believe there is even a remote chance they will get a piece of it, they will let her play with an advantage. Everything we do is all about getting laid anyway. This is the way the world works. 90% of what a female can get away with and 10% of what a male can get away with is based on how they look.

I have enough information to know that going into Harrah's HL with three betting units probably isn't a good idea, even with extremely strong advantage play. Unless you're psychic and know today is the day you turn those 3 units into 160 units

Either that or there was cheating going on, shrug. And the argument could be made by some that cheating/dealer collusion is the best form of AP of all! (Assuming you don't get caught! :joker::whip

 

[Automatic Monkey]

You are one funny monkey. :laugh: I think that as time goes on this is becoming less and less true. No matter what line of work they are in, advances in technology are making every move, every action, every decision by workers reviewable, and they may now be held accountable for such things.

So they'll be held accountable. Guys risk their jobs and careers over pussy all the time. The job of President of the United States is no exception; do you think people as base and corrupt as the employees of casinos are going to be above it?