S17 vs H17 ?
- Thread starter blackchipjim
- Start date
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It was kinda funny while I was playing in vegas this week my wife walked up behind me and saw me surrender. She never saw me surrender a hand and questioned the move since we don't have surrender at the joints we play at back east. When I explained it to her the dealer interjected that alot of people misplay the surrender option thus hurting themselves. It was a real pleasure to be able to surrender and helped in the overall profit for the game.
It was kinda funny while I was playing in vegas this week my wife walked up behind me and saw me surrender. She never saw me surrender a hand and questioned the move since we don't have surrender at the joints we play at back east. When I explained it to her the dealer interjected that alot of people misplay the surrender option thus hurting themselves. It was a real pleasure to be able to surrender and helped in the overall profit for the game.
Rukus
Rukus
This site has alot of newbies that have seen some BJ films like 21 and think it
is all glamour and easy money, I want them to think of the other flip side of the coin. I do not want them mislead to the point of quitting college or thinking they need not a career, or a trade, or a healthy life style, a family which they can support.
I am the advocate for the opposite thinking[/I], I want them, newbies, to be aware of the dark side of that life style. That is my mission when I make these posts.
You make a comment about my playing this game seriously, you do not have to be a fulltimer to play this game seriously, or with Skillz,,,Rukus, you should know that.
The finest players I have ever sat at the table with were Business men, Jet Pilots, or Professors, not full time players,,,,but the way they played was stunning,,,,they had their Priorites correct. They had the ability to excell in both worlds, taking advantage of the best that both offered, but knowing where their true best interest and the best interest of their loved ones truly existed. A hint,,it was not in the full time gambling world.
My suggestion to all newbies, get an education, a trade, work hard, and if you have the desire to hone talent and skillz to attack the BJ game, to do it only as a part time endeavor, always putting career and family first, and do so with caution.
Best Wishes
CP
Rukus
This site has alot of newbies that have seen some BJ films like 21 and think it
is all glamour and easy money, I want them to think of the other flip side of the coin. I do not want them mislead to the point of quitting college or thinking they need not a career, or a trade, or a healthy life style, a family which they can support.
I am the advocate for the opposite thinking[/I], I want them, newbies, to be aware of the dark side of that life style. That is my mission when I make these posts.
You make a comment about my playing this game seriously, you do not have to be a fulltimer to play this game seriously, or with Skillz,,,Rukus, you should know that.
The finest players I have ever sat at the table with were Business men, Jet Pilots, or Professors, not full time players,,,,but the way they played was stunning,,,,they had their Priorites correct. They had the ability to excell in both worlds, taking advantage of the best that both offered, but knowing where their true best interest and the best interest of their loved ones truly existed. A hint,,it was not in the full time gambling world.My suggestion to all newbies, get an education, a trade, work hard, and if you have the desire to hone talent and skillz to attack the BJ game, to do it only as a part time endeavor, always putting career and family first, and do so with caution.
Best Wishes
CP
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I have never suggusted, encouraged nor 'trumpeted' the gambling lifestyle. As a matter of fact, in the real world outside of blackjack message boards, whenever I reveal my occupation to someone, which is very infrequent, the second sentence out of my mouth is "It's not a great as it sounds, No health Insurance. No paid vacation or days off. No contributing towards retirement in the form of SS or pention". I also like to point out that if you get sick or injured as I did last year, you can go weeks or months with no money coming in, only money going out.
I am proud of my small accomplishments in blackjack and enjoy sharing my experiences with the blackjack community via message boards. (you remember that this is a blackjack message board, right, not a career counseling advise board) It gives me an outlet to discuss blackjack that I don't have in my home life as my friends are not blackjack players. Earlier this year when I decided to stop participating on this board, I received so many messages of support (including two moderators) asking me to continue posting, that I reconsidered.
I am proud of my small accomplishments in blackjack and enjoy sharing my experiences with the blackjack community via message boards. (you remember that this is a blackjack message board, right, not a career counseling advise board) It gives me an outlet to discuss blackjack that I don't have in my home life as my friends are not blackjack players. Earlier this year when I decided to stop participating on this board, I received so many messages of support (including two moderators) asking me to continue posting, that I reconsidered.
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CP-
I understand very well where you are coming from in trying to present a balanced view for newbies reading these pages (I used to always post that "you won't win" article from snyder's bjf here whenever a newbie came on looking for the good life).
While i do know you don't need to be a full time "pro" to have solid skills or be serious about the game (heck, I'm only currently part time), my comment regarding that was that those who are full time don't have the same luxury you or i have in choosing the best games and only pounding those games hard every once in a while. They need a larger stable of games to play so as to continue getting the hours in without over exposure. I think KJ was trying to impress this as well. Tons of part timers are absolutely solid players, few are full timers supporting themselves. The game choices between the two types will not be the same and it doesn't make any one group better/smarter than the other one.
I understand very well where you are coming from in trying to present a balanced view for newbies reading these pages (I used to always post that "you won't win" article from snyder's bjf here whenever a newbie came on looking for the good life).
While i do know you don't need to be a full time "pro" to have solid skills or be serious about the game (heck, I'm only currently part time), my comment regarding that was that those who are full time don't have the same luxury you or i have in choosing the best games and only pounding those games hard every once in a while. They need a larger stable of games to play so as to continue getting the hours in without over exposure. I think KJ was trying to impress this as well. Tons of part timers are absolutely solid players, few are full timers supporting themselves. The game choices between the two types will not be the same and it doesn't make any one group better/smarter than the other one.
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Flash: is the reason why you would do so be because Surveillance would be watching the game with the greater expectation more closely?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but take a 6D game with H17, DAS (DS), RSA, and LS--I'm coming up with a 0.46 % HA.
Compare that to a 6D game with S17, DAS (DS), RSA with no LS: a 0.34% HA.
So it would seem you'd gladly give up 0.08% for the lessened heat; if so, I take it you'd still chose the H17 game even if the same store offered LS on the S17 version (for a 0.2% differential)?
Regards,
FD
Correct me if I'm wrong, but take a 6D game with H17, DAS (DS), RSA, and LS--I'm coming up with a 0.46 % HA.
Compare that to a 6D game with S17, DAS (DS), RSA with no LS: a 0.34% HA.
So it would seem you'd gladly give up 0.08% for the lessened heat; if so, I take it you'd still chose the H17 game even if the same store offered LS on the S17 version (for a 0.2% differential)?
Regards,
FD
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No, the reason you'd be wise to choose the H17 game is because LS is more valuable to the counter than S17 is. The problem you're having is looking at the game from the off-the-top disadvantage. The house edge is not the only concern when selecting games. In this case, H17 only has a relatively negative effect during low counts, where a counter will have theie minimum (or no) bets out. When the count is higher and you have more money on the table, LS is much more valuable. Thus, a H17 game that offers surrender is preferable to a S17 game with no surrender, all other factors (pen, heat, amount of players seated, and so on) being equal.
creeping panther said:
All things being the same,,,jump at S-17,,it's the math baby
CP
CP
I know mathematically choosing the S17 LS over the H17 LS is the is the obvious choice, but would you guys really recommend playing in a High Limit room with S17 LS over H17 LS on the main floor?
Seems potentially risky to me.
I know of one active playing pro who calls these situations a counter trap--and he avoids them: This is Daniel Dravot from The Color Of Blackjack:
"Management's theory is that flies will be attracted to honey and that is where they concentrate their surveillance and best pit personnel. I never play the best game in a casino. One section might have games with S17 and another with H17. I'll give up the -0.2% and play the H17 game, figuring the S17 table is a counter trap. Actually H17 is not quite as detrimental to counters, because the dealer will have less small cards to make a hand when our BB is out."
If you guys still disagree, how long would you play the said game in High Limit? (I figure you'd got to be out of there in 75 hands before they could potentially be on to you--longer if you haven't had a chance to put out your BBs.)
Best regards,
FD
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Fd
I would never give up EV for fear of a counter trap unless there was other information I was privy too. Like maybe Max and the SD at Barona:laugh:
S-17 vs H-17 is not a counter trap, it is usually a promo to the big bettors to entice them to the HL room.
Finn, if you are good, and the eye is good, you will be made in short time,,so just play, play hard, play smart, and play to win...play for blood!:devil:
CP
I would never give up EV for fear of a counter trap unless there was other information I was privy too. Like maybe Max and the SD at Barona
:laugh:S-17 vs H-17 is not a counter trap, it is usually a promo to the big bettors to entice them to the HL room.
Finn, if you are good, and the eye is good, you will be made in short time,,so just play, play hard, play smart, and play to win...play for blood!
:devil:CP
sagefr0g said:
...like everything else it's a complicated world, so many things, so many things to think about and weigh one against the other.
creeping panther said:
Finn, if you are good, and the eye is good, you will be made in short time,,so just play, play hard, play smart, and play to win...play for blood!:devil:
CP
:devil:CP
Regards,
FD
SleightOfHand said:
Now come on, you know thats not a good argument here
Looking here, at negative counts, there is a difference of ~.25% in advantage. In neutral counts, about .2%. Moderately high, .15%. Very high, .1-.05%
PS: This is counting with Zen
Looking here, at negative counts, there is a difference of ~.25% in advantage. In neutral counts, about .2%. Moderately high, .15%. Very high, .1-.05%
PS: This is counting with Zen
