Scavenger BJ?

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ms069279

Well-Known Member
#1
#1
I know this topic has been discussed in the past but while searching through old posts, I couldn't quite find an answer to this...

Has anyone here have had the experience of offering to take someone's double down on a hand like 10 v 7, 10 v 8, etc? The reason why I ask is because the player would be forced to take just one more card and if he catches a baby, 2-6, he might get upset at you for offering the double down as he won't be able to take another hit...

I feel like it would be best to offer to participate in someone's action when the dealer is showing a small card, 10 v 2, 11 v 3, etc, therefore assuring that the player would only take 1 card regardless - and there would be no fear of standing after the double.

Thoughts?
 
S

shadroch

Well-Known Member
#3
#3
Depends if you are a nice guy or a scumbag. Also depends if you want to build a "long-term" relationship with your tablemates or want to do a one and done burn.
I generally will only offer to funds a DD when its pretty obvious there is only one card in either event.
 
M

ms069279

Well-Known Member
#5
#5
LOL -- :grin:

Thanks fellows, I'm still reading that long thread from way back when that zg sent me the link for...

Interesting battle...

Shad - I tend to agree... as I could imagine a ploppy being offered a double-down versus a dealer high card, where if not knowledgeable of the "right" play, he might consider taking a second card, which would not be permitted upon the DD..

TKS! Still reading :eek:
 
blackchipjim

blackchipjim

Well-Known Member
#8
#8
Scavenger play

It has alot to do with who you are playing with and your game. You just playing a wong in and out game go for it regardless of who it is your're not staying around to make friends. The conditions inside the joint have to be taken into account too, such as crowds. Is it a big joint alot of tables open or small with a couple open makes it a no go or you will stand out like a sore thumb.The more you play the more experience you gain and you will know when to scavenge and when to lay low.
 
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Renzey

Well-Known Member
#9
#9
ms069279 said:
I feel like it would be best to offer to participate in someone's action when the dealer is showing a small card, 10 v 2, 11 v 3, etc, therefore assuring that the player would only take 1 card regardless - and there would be no fear of standing after the double.
Click to expand...
If you know what that player's EV is on the particular double which he insists on passing up, you can offer to buy his hand outright for a guaranteed profit to him -- then double with it. They need to be fairly strong doubles to have a net profit left over after paying a premium to take over the hand.

For example, with 11 vs. 8, you'll win the hand 54% of the time, push 10% and lose 36% after doubling. You could buy his $25 hand for $30, take it over and double for another $25.
You'll make a $45 win 54% of the time.
You'll make a $5 loss 10% of the time.
You'll sustain a $55 loss 36% of the time.

It's about a $4 net gain per hand, or about a +7% EV on the play. Other hands with similar properties are:
10 vs. 8
10 vs. 7
9 vs. 6 (in case he'd have caught a deuce)

You could also pay a 10% bonus on 11 vs. 10 (a commonly passed up double) and net about a +4% EV.
 
S

shadroch

Well-Known Member
#10
#10
Renzey said:
If you know what that player's EV is on the particular double which he insists on passing up, you can offer to buy his hand outright for a guaranteed profit to him -- then double with it. They need to be fairly strong doubles to have a net profit left over after paying a premium to take over the hand.

For example, with 11 vs. 8, you'll win the hand 54% of the time, push 10% and lose 36% after doubling. You could buy his $25 hand for $30, take it over and double for another $25.
You'll make a $45 win 54% of the time.
You'll make a $5 loss 10% of the time.
You'll sustain a $55 loss 36% of the time.

It's about a $4 net gain per hand, or about a +7% EV on the play. Other hands with similar properties are:
10 vs. 8
10 vs. 7
9 vs. 6 (in case he'd have caught a deuce)

You could also pay a 10% bonus on 11 vs. 10 (a commonly passed up double) and net about a +4% EV.
Click to expand...
What are your thoughts about the risk of exposing yourself as someone with an intimate working awareness of the game as oppossed to the reward you can obtain.
 
Automatic Monkey

Automatic Monkey

Banned
#11
#11
shadroch said:
Depends if you are a nice guy or a scumbag. Also depends if you want to build a "long-term" relationship with your tablemates or want to do a one and done burn.
I generally will only offer to funds a DD when its pretty obvious there is only one card in either event.
Click to expand...
I also do it if the civilian is planning to double for less. Sometimes getting some money in there is +EV even if doubling would not have been the right play, but we can't stop anyone from doubling so we might as well squeeze some pennies out of it. My best scavenger plays have been on offensive splits where the player was out of funds or not brave enough to split.

You also have to concern yourself with if the civilian is a nice guy or a scumbag. Easy to get ripped off like this.
 
A

assume_R

Well-Known Member
#12
#12
Renzey said:
If you know what that player's EV is on the particular double which he insists on passing up, you can offer to buy his hand outright for a guaranteed profit to him -- then double with it. They need to be fairly strong doubles to have a net profit left over after paying a premium to take over the hand.

For example, with 11 vs. 8, you'll win the hand 54% of the time, push 10% and lose 36% after doubling. You could buy his $25 hand for $30, take it over and double for another $25.
You'll make a $45 win 54% of the time.
You'll make a $5 loss 10% of the time.
You'll sustain a $55 loss 36% of the time.

It's about a $4 net gain per hand, or about a +7% EV on the play. Other hands with similar properties are:
10 vs. 8
10 vs. 7
9 vs. 6 (in case he'd have caught a deuce)

You could also pay a 10% bonus on 11 vs. 10 (a commonly passed up double) and net about a +4% EV.
Click to expand...
This is really interesting. Each hand would presumably have different "cutoff" points, of how much it would be worth it for you to buy the hand. For example, in higher counts, you could offer the other player substantially more money (since your winning % goes up) compared to negative counts, when it might not be worth it to buy the hand.

Recently, I was playing at a table and a woman had 10v7 or something like that, and didn't have enough money to double it. She asked if I would like to, which I did, and for which I took all of the doubling winnings. Pretty much +EV I think!

I wonder how I'd calculate that... it was a green chip...

Winning: +$25 * 55% = +$13.75
Pushing: -$0 * 10% = $0
Losing: -$25 * 35% = -$8.75

So +$5 on a $25 bet, or +20% EV. Did I do that math correctly?
 
R

Renzey

Well-Known Member
#13
#13
assume_R said:
Recently, I was playing at a table and a woman had 10v7 or something like that, and didn't have enough money to double it. She asked if I would like to, which I did, and for which I took all of the doubling winnings. Pretty much +EV I think! I wonder how I'd calculate that... it was a green chip...

Winning: +$25 * 55% = +$13.75
Pushing: -$0 * 10% = $0
Losing: -$25 * 35% = -$8.75

So +$5 on a $25 bet, or +20% EV. Did I do that math correctly?
Click to expand...
If you're not buying the hand outright for a premium, both halves of the double remain symmetrical and there's no need to take pushes into consideration -- only your EV. 10 vs. 7 has a +20% EV when doubling. So just count 6 wins minus 4 losses = +$5 on the play.
 
R

Renzey

Well-Known Member
#14
#14
shadroch said:
What are your thoughts about the risk of exposing yourself as someone with an intimate working awareness of the game as oppossed to the reward you can obtain.
Click to expand...
I think it's all part of a persona. A player is friendly, sociable and nonchalant about his game. He's interested in whether his football team on TV is "covering" the line. He ratholes 2 or 3 times his positive EV in chips. He's already taken Insurance 3 times for a tenth of a bet with an assortment of hands, he's doubled for a tenth with 12 against a 2, he's given away half of his 7/7 vs. 3 split, he's defiantly split 3/3 vs. 8 after being advised not to do it, he's taken half of somebody's double on 8 vs. 6. He's doubled down with 10 vs. 10 -- all at a neutral count. And now he outright buys somebody's fifty dollar 11 vs. 10 for $55. All these plays, some good and some bad, had a combined positive EV. Who on the floor or upstairs knows the value of his last play -- or what to make of this guy?

Then again, surviellance people can read this post too. So mix in these ditties, and others at your own risk.
 
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zengrifter

zengrifter

Banned
#15
#15
Renzey said:
I think it's all part of a persona. A player is friendly, sociable and nonchalant about his game. He's interested in whether his football team on TV is "covering" the line. He ratholes 2 or 3 times his positive EV in chips. He's already taken Insurance 3 times for a tenth of a bet with an assortment of hands, he's doubled for a tenth with 12 against a 2, he's given away half of his 7/7 vs. 3 split, he's defiantly split 3/3 vs. 8 after being advised not to do it, he's taken half of somebody's double on 8 vs. 6. He's doubled down with 10 vs. 10 -- all at a neutral count. And now he outright buys somebody's fifty dollar 11 vs. 10 for $55. All these plays, some good and some bad, had a combined positive EV. Who on the floor or upstairs knows the value of his last play -- or what to make of this guy?
Click to expand...
Excellent! Kudos! zg
 
M

ms069279

Well-Known Member
#16
#16
Thanks all -- Great Responses and lots to think about and take into considerations. I absolutely agree that casino conditions play a huge role and the "persona" does as well. Gotta get into character and stick to it. So many ways to go about it. It all makes perfect sense.

Tks again,

M.

;)
 
I

itrack

Well-Known Member
#17
#17
Sonny said:
Canada?

-Sonny-
Click to expand...
Good guess but theres still a couple of us around. I remember when I first learned about scavenger plays I talked a guy into splitting his pair of 10s with my money. When we lost both hands he wasn't too impressed:whip:.
 
moo321

moo321

Well-Known Member
#18
#18
Personally, I don't think scavenger plays are going to bring much heat, with the possible exception of taking a massive insurance bet at a +count. What the hell does the eye care if you buy people's doubles?
 
T

tensplitter

Well-Known Member
#19
#19
I am so tempted to insure someone else's hand in a big + count. The only time I did that was when another player had a $25 bet and hit a natural when the dealer showed Ace. I advised him to take the even money as it was "the only sure thing". He wouldn't take the even money, so I offered to put up half his bet as insurance. The dealer had blackjack and I won my own insurance bet and his insurance bet, his blackjack pushed but I gave him a white chip. I had the impression of being drunk so the pit was used to hearing me say stupid things.
 
M

mikeS

Member
#20
#20
Assuming no heat, what is the EV of taking everyone's insurance bets at a full table with everyone betting $10? Let's also say that we only do it when the TC is 1 higher than would typically be required to accept insurance.
 
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