Splitting Tens and getting an Ace

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DMMx3

Well-Known Member
#1
#1
Using Hi-Lo, we start splitting Tens with a TC of 5 against a dealer 5 or 6. Last weekend I had a TC of 9+, and was dealt Ten Ten, which I split and proceeded to hit Ace and Ten, for a total of Twenty-One and Twenty. Dealer busted, so I won both.

But after I hit each Ten one time, it occurred to me I could have doubled down on the Ten-Ace hand. It didn't occur to me until too late, but also I have no idea the index for when this play would make sense. CVData doesn't have anywhere to create or use such an Index for a soft-21.

Any help on an appropriate index for Hi-Lo doubling a Ten-Ace vs. various dealers up cards?
 
daddybo

daddybo

Well-Known Member
#2
#2
It would be the same as 11.... But it's not the thing to do for a variety of reasons,and most places will only permit one card on the split ace.
 
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M

mleancole

Member
#3
#3
There are some casinos in Argentina that pay the two-card 21 as a Blackjack (3:2) after splitting 10s or Aces. Strange but interesting rule!

Mike
 
D

DMMx3

Well-Known Member
#4
#4
I don't think it is the same as an 11.

At 11 you have to hit since you don't have a hand yet. At twenty one you have a guaranteed non-loser, and the value of your hand is probably something like .94 of whatever bet you have out there when the TC is high and the dealer has something like a 5 or 6.

Also, to be clear, I'm not talking about splitting aces (though if you were allowed to play the split aces it would be the same.) This is about splitting TENS and getting an ace.
 
S

sabre

Well-Known Member
#5
#5
That index has to be substantially higher than the one for A9. For one thing, the A, which is contributing to your high count, really helps the A9 while it really cripples your AT.

Furthermore, for this situation to even occur, you have to split TT and get an A, taking 3 hi cards out of play. That means you'd have had to start with a count much higher than the actual index, decreasing the number of times this situation even occurs.

I'm guessing that the risk adverse index for this play is high enough that knowing it is going to amount to a few dollars over a lifetime of play.
 
2

21gunsalute

Well-Known Member
#6
#6
You could have split the 2nd set of tens again, but I have no idea how many times you should split them. It seems like if you keep splitting them sooner or later it's going to bite you.
 
S

sabre

Well-Known Member
#8
#8
21gunsalute said:
You could have split the 2nd set of tens again, but I have no idea how many times you should split them. It seems like if you keep splitting them sooner or later it's going to bite you.
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You keep splitting them as long as you're above your index until the dealer tells you to stop.
 
D

DMMx3

Well-Known Member
#9
#9
21gunsalute said:
You could have split the 2nd set of tens again, but I have no idea how many times you should split them. It seems like if you keep splitting them sooner or later it's going to bite you.
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This is correct. I guess I should have mentioned I screwed that up as well. The dealer sort of split them for me and then hit them alsmot instanly, sort of like they deal to split aces, and for whatever reason I just let the 2nd Tens go.

To figure out how many times you resplit, you just have to keep calculating the TC to determine the right play.
 
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D

DMMx3

Well-Known Member
#10
#10
sabre said:
That index has to be substantially higher than the one for A9. For one thing, the A, which is contributing to your high count, really helps the A9 while it really cripples your AT.

Furthermore, for this situation to even occur, you have to split TT and get an A, taking 3 hi cards out of play. That means you'd have had to start with a count much higher than the actual index, decreasing the number of times this situation even occurs.

I'm guessing that the risk adverse index for this play is high enough that knowing it is going to amount to a few dollars over a lifetime of play.
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Sounds right to me on all accounts. I'm more interested for the sake of knowing, than for adding an index to my playing strategy that will result in a minuscule increase in profits.
 
daddybo

daddybo

Well-Known Member
#11
#11
sabre said:
o rly?
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RLY! If you are not going to play the A,10 as 21, then it can only be 11. Then you would use the index play for 11 against the dealer up card. Why would anyone double/hit a 21? Why would you want to bring that kind of heat on yourself? :laugh: I'm not saying there aren't rare times when it's mathematically feasible.. but I can see no logical reason to do it. I dang sure wouldn't do it using Hi-Lo.
 
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daddybo

daddybo

Well-Known Member
#13
#13
DMMx3 said:
I don't think it is the same as an 11.

At 11 you have to hit since you don't have a hand yet. At twenty one you have a guaranteed non-loser, and the value of your hand is probably something like .94 of whatever bet you have out there when the TC is high and the dealer has something like a 5 or 6.
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If it's not 21 then it's 11... Why would you not use the indices for 11 verses Dealer 5?

DMMx3 said:
Also, to be clear, I'm not talking about splitting aces (though if you were allowed to play the split aces it would be the same.) This is about splitting TENS and getting an ace.
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Yeah, I was thinking about a game I play occasionally that does allow doubling on Split ACEs, where I see it happen every now and then.
 
S

sabre

Well-Known Member
#14
#14
daddybo said:
RLY! If you are not going to play the A,10 as 21, then it can only be 11. Then you would use the index play for 11 against the dealer up card. Which of course is a foolish play. Why would anyone double/hit a 21? Why would you want to bring that kind of heat on yourself? :laugh: I'm not saying there aren't rare times when it's mathematically feasible.. but I can see no logical reason to do it. I dang sure wouldn't do it using Hi-Lo.
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By that argument, why double A7 v 3? Ploppies don't do that. You're just exposing yourself to the pit.

Why double 9v2? The deuce is the dealers A. Why bring that heat on yourself.

Why split 99v4? You have 18!

Would it have been that hard to admit that your original comment was grossly in error, instead of this lame justification?
 
daddybo

daddybo

Well-Known Member
#15
#15
sabre said:
By that argument, why double A7 v 3? Ploppies don't
do that. You're just exposing yourself to the pit.
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I don't find that play bringing much heat.. and ploppies do it all the time.

sabre said:
Why double 9v2? The deuce is the dealers A. Why bring that heat on yourself.
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Doubling 9 vs 2 can and will bring heat.. Some are trained to look for that very play.

sabre said:
Why split 99v4? You have 18!
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18 is not a strong hand.


sabre said:
Would it have been that hard to admit that your original comment was grossly in error, instead of this lame justification?
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I don't think I'm in error on this one. I can see it being positive EV.. Just not a smart move. But then Again.. If I were playing for much money.. I wouldn't have spiit the 10,s to start with. OK.. Tell me what Index you would use to Double A,10.
 
L

London Colin

Well-Known Member
#16
#16
daddybo said:
RLY! If you are not going to play the A,10 as 21, then it can only be 11. Then you would use the index play for 11 against the dealer up card. Why would anyone double/hit a 21? Why would you want to bring that kind of heat on yourself? :laugh: I'm not saying there aren't rare times when it's mathematically feasible.. but I can see no logical reason to do it. I dang sure wouldn't do it using Hi-Lo.
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The index being sought is the one which would make doubling worth more than standing. In other words, the index which identifies those rare times which you mention.

You don't first decide to treat the A,10 as 11, and then choose between hit and double; that would be perverse, to say the least.
 
D

DMMx3

Well-Known Member
#17
#17
daddybo said:
But then Again.. If I were playing for much money.. I wouldn't have spiit the 10,s to start with.
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One of the "peculiar" things about all of these rare plays is that you only make them when you have a max or near max bet on the table. I play $25 mins typically, and I'm rarely (probably closer to never) splitting tens or doubling A9 with a bet of 1 or 2 or 3 units. I only do it when I have, say, a 10+ unit bet riding on the decision.
 
daddybo

daddybo

Well-Known Member
#18
#18
DMMx3 said:
One of the "peculiar" things about all of these rare plays is that you only make them when you have a max or near max bet on the table. I play $25 mins typically, and I'm rarely (probably closer to never) splitting tens or doubling A9 with a bet of 1 or 2 or 3 units. I only do it when I have, say, a 10+ unit bet riding on the decision.
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I know what you mean. :) It's a great play EV wise. But, It usually makes the pit nervous when splitting tens with the big bucks out. ECAA and I had a long chat about this and other plays... He convinced me it just wasn't worth it in the long run. My same logic for doubling A,10. Against a 5, it makes sense from an EV point of view at certain counts... But it will draw lots of attention.
 
S

Sucker

Well-Known Member
#19
#19
daddybo said:
It would be the same as 11.... But it's not the thing to do for a variety of reasons,and most places will only permit one card on the split ace.
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Don't know whether you're being sarcastic, or if you were drunk when you posted this; or if you really ARE that dumb.
Either way, stupid statements such as this serve no useful purpose on these forums. There ARE people here that are trying to learn; why would you want to purposely sabotage their education?
 
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