Stop Limits

weavin42

Well-Known Member
#1
What does everyone use for a stop limit when playing? I'm a smaller limit player so there is really no heat. I've heard only play for an hour or so, or go to a different casino (I'm in KC so that's a little harder to do). Should I follow the time rule or should I set stop limits based on being up/down a given number of units? This is assuming I can keep an accurate count for the whole time I play and if I have any mental fatigue I quite.

Josh
 
#2
weavin42 said:
Should I follow the time rule or should I set stop limits based on being up/down a given number of units? This is assuming I can keep an accurate count for the whole time I play and if I have any mental fatigue I quit.
Stop limits based on time or units have no math bearing. It partilally depends on what size stakes you're playing - if small just keep playing until you are tired. zg
 

bluewhale

Well-Known Member
#3
zengrifter said:
Stop limits based on time or units have no math bearing. It partilally depends on what size stakes you're playing - if small just keep playing until you are tired. zg
i think some stop limits might be useful, hear me out...
basically the goal is to make your wins look small, your lossses look huge. so what i tend to do is to keep playing until i have a reasonable amount of money won... something that would not attract too much attention. on the other side, if i'm down something small, i keep going, if i'm down a LOT i'll stop and ask the pit to comp me something.

so yeh, i'm obv. not advocating stop/win losses based on risk or something. but i think it can be used for heat or comps. also obv.
 

EasyRhino

Well-Known Member
#4
45 min seems good as a conservative amount of time to spend in a place if you think you're going to get heat.

After a while, you can hopefully get an idea if you really are getting any heat or not, and stretch it. Or at least until other factors like crowds, fatigue, or boredome kick in.
 

Preston

Well-Known Member
#5
The games in KC are actually pretty decent. However, the problem I have with them is they limit losses to $500 per 2 hour period. Sometimes you just get killed in a postiive count and want to jump back in ASAP and that stupid rule gets in the way.

You have a number of casinos to choose from including Argosy, Isle or Capri, Harrahs. That is better than a lot of places have.
 

weavin42

Well-Known Member
#6
KC blackjack

The rules on the $500 dollar loss limit have changed slightly so they are manageable. I could buy in for $500 at 1:59 and then rebuy in at 2:00 (rebuys on even hours) for another $500. They don't actually limit your actual losses but your buy in for every 2 hour period. Max bet in high limit is $2000. You can also bring chips with you. The thing that sucks is you are required to use a player’s card to buy in. It could blow your cover but I'm pretty sure they can't kick you out, only make you flat bet.

As far as the casinos go, there are 4 within 10-30min of each other. Ameristar has amazing DD (70%-75%+ PEN, good rules), Harrah's has ok DD too but it's $25 min. bet (I'm still building my bankroll), Isle of Capri is so so, the pen is usually only 60-65%. The final casino (Argosy) sucks for straight counting (less then %50 pen on DD). I'm pretty sure it could be exploited with shuffle tracking (6 deck and only on tables with broken ASMs). I need to learn more about shuffle tracking and practice before I try it but the house hand shuffle I watched appears very weak.


Josh
 

EasyRhino

Well-Known Member
#7
If I read my missouri gaming regs right, they can't even force you to flat bet, although they can eliminate mid shoe entry, and start shuffling up like crazy. The might also be able to effectively flat-bet you by jacking with table min and max.

Interesting that Ameristar KC has good DD penetration. Ameristar STL's DD is dealt out of a shoe with exactly 50% penetration. Least when I looked last year.
 

weavin42

Well-Known Member
#8
I've had a few dealers give amazing pen at ameristar (I mean 1/4 deck left or less!). It just varys from dealer to dealer (I make note of the good pen dealers).

I'm pretty sure they mess with the table mins and maxes if they have any problems with your play. I've never seen it though, it would probably piss off the ploppies too much. I've never seen them shuffle mid shoe from a bet raise but I'm still at the red chip tables. I have however, had a dealer switch from giving good pen to giving 50% pen from time to time (I might let it slide once but if it happens again I find a new table).

Josh
 

Preston

Well-Known Member
#9
DO NOT WORRY ABOUT COVER!!! IN MISSOURI IT IS ILLEGAL FOR THEM TO BAN YOU!!!

Of course, they can do countermeasures to your counting (i.e. penetration level) but it is technically illegal for them to ban you.
 

ScottH

Well-Known Member
#10
Preston said:
DO NOT WORRY ABOUT COVER!!! IN MISSOURI IT IS ILLEGAL FOR THEM TO BAN YOU!!!

Of course, they can do countermeasures to your counting (i.e. penetration level) but it is technically illegal for them to ban you.
You still have to worry about cover to protect a good game. They can make the game so bad that they wont have to ban you, you will be forced to leave on your own will!
 

Dyepaintball12

Well-Known Member
#11
I am no expert, but Avery Cardoza wrote in one of his books that stop limits are bad because you never know when the cards will change so their is no advantage to stopping.

However, I am not sure I agree with this or anything he says.
 

mdlbj

Well-Known Member
#12
zengrifter said:
Stop limits based on time or units have no math bearing. It partially depends on what size stakes you're playing - if small just keep playing until you are tired. zg
ZG has this one nailed.
 
#13
My thoughts on loss limits

Grifter is of course correct. There is no mathematical basis for a stop loss or win. As long as the game remains good, and one is mentally alert with emotions in check, keep playing. But you will have to move around if you take this approach. As much as you may want to, you can't play at the same store for several hours at a time. "Back offs" are certain to occur, but will be rare if you limit your sessions to 45 minutes or less. Win or lose.

And still there may be some monetary guidelines you will want to consider if you are a big player. Primarily, the CTR threshold. I once got a shoulder tap, and thought I was done. But they were informing me that my next buy in would generate the paper work (some players keep an inventory of chips to avoid this problem). There is also the monetary tolerance of the casino to consider. A 3k win may be ignored at Wynn, but cause a great deal of concern at Samstown. And oddly, mounting losses may get more attention than winning. In a group conversation I had a while back, someone was asked if they ever stopped play because of large losses. His answer was that he never quit because of losses, but that it was probably a good idea. As he received much more heat with large losses than large wins. It is apparently unnatural for someone to continually take a beating when there are so many casinos and tables to move to.

As for how much I'll win, I try to gauge how much the casino I am playing at will accept without getting too upset. But generally my self imposed time limit comes well before that is a concern.
 

KenSmith

Administrator
Staff member
#14
Walt said:
And oddly, mounting losses may get more attention than winning. In a group conversation I had a while back, someone was asked if they ever stopped play because of large losses. His answer was that he never quit because of losses, but that it was probably a good idea. As he received much more heat with large losses than large wins. It is apparently unnatural for someone to continually take a beating when there are so many casinos and tables to move to.
This is a valuable point. The majority of my backoffs have been during losing sessions. If you're buying in enough times to be conspicuous, take the loss at that store and move on. Booking some losses in a particular casino is a good thing anyway. Go win the money back somewhere else.
 
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