Suing a Casino

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bjattack

Member
#1
#1
I have on occasion made large bets when I was playing what I believed was a good game of blackjack. Decent rules and decent penetration, this is the game I had expected to play consistently when I made those large bets. However the casino changed the game after several of my max bet losses. When I a lost the money I was then given about 60% penetration, there was no chance I could make back the thousands that I lost with that change in penetration.
When I first went to play I did not under any circumstances feel this could even be done. It is my belief that a casino cannot "change the game" unfairly in this way, and this could be a good reason to sue.
 
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blikous

Member
#2
#2
I'll just make this short.

You have no case. The only possible outcome will be worse conditions for other counters like always using 60% penetration to prevent counters/lawsuits
 
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Leaveawinner

Banned
#3
#3
Go to findlaw or nexus-lexus and search. You can find a form. If the information is filled in, just change it to fit your needs. If you're doing this by hand, which will most likely be the end resort, You need to make a few points. That,

1. The court has jurisdiction
2. The wrongful action taken by the casino
3. The loss and/or injury you suffered
4. The proper redress to your damages

You'll need 3 copies..

1 for the judge
1 for each defendant
1 for you

Pay the filing fee in the clerks office providing a copy to them.
Take a copy to the sheriff's office in most courthouses. Pay service fee. Give the sheriff a copy then has the court date and time stamp.

2nd part of ordeal

Defendant answers. 100% motion to dismiss
Plaintiff responds by showing why this case has merit. File a copy of your response at the clerks office, and by mailing a copy to each defendant.




You're better off falling down stairs during housecleaning. Don't forget to take names and dates.
 
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bjattack

Member
#4
#4
I have no case????????

Do you think I was being treated fairly?

A casino offers a game; they challenge people to play, then if they think
they will lose in the long term they change the game so it is unbeatable.

Do you think that is fair?

Do you think a judge would think that is fair?

I honestly do not think that is fair, and think I would have very good odds of
winning the lawsuit.
 
UK-21

UK-21

Well-Known Member
#5
#5
Altering the penetration on it's own is not changing the game - the ruleset and payouts will remain the same. It does make it nigh on impossible for a skilled player to come out on top, but that's another matter. This will go nowhere if you pursue it in court (although I'm based in the UK, I doubt very much that a US court would take a different view from a British one).

The answer, of course, is to find somewhere else to play.

Sorry. :(


PS - if you're considering litigation in order to find "fairness" you need to take a rather longer view of law, as an institution and profession. When a ruling is in the offing, fairness tends to come well down the list of considerations - Statute, common law, legal grounds, regulatory frameworks etc taking priority. Try anonymously 'phoning your State gaming board or whatever and run it past them. I'm sure they'll say the same - the casino isn't doing anything unlawful.
 
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21gunsalute

Well-Known Member
#6
#6
bjattack said:
I have on occasion made large bets when I was playing what I believed was a good game of blackjack. Decent rules and decent penetration, this is the game I had expected to play consistently when I made those large bets. However the casino changed the game after several of my max bet losses. When I a lost the money I was then given about 60% penetration, there was no chance I could make back the thousands that I lost with that change in penetration.
When I first went to play I did not under any circumstances feel this could even be done. It is my belief that a casino cannot "change the game" unfairly in this way, and this could be a good reason to sue.
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Do they have posted rules stating what the penetration will be? If not you don't have a case. Can you prove that the penetration was only 60% despite these posted rules? If not you don't have a case. Now, let's assume you do have a case. What are you going to say in court? "The penetration hurts me because I count cards?" Now you'll go on public record as being a card counter and won't be allowed to play anywhere. You certainly will not be allowed to play in the joint in question no matter what the outcome (and why would you want to?), so what's the point in suing?

A casinos mission is to treat people unfairly (while trying to make people think that they're being treated well). If they treated everyone "fairly", everyone would make money and the casino would be out of business.

Being treated "unfairly" is not a crime...unless you're considered to be from a racial minority. Then everything is a crime. I'd go for that angle if you can. The casino committed a hate crime against an inferior being. Good luck with that. :rolleyes:
 
Pro21

Pro21

Well-Known Member
#7
#7
21gunsalute said:
... Now you'll go on public record as being a card counter and won't be allowed to play anywhere. You certainly will not be allowed to play in the joint in question no matter what the outcome (and why would you want to?), so what's the point in suing?
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I agree that BJAttack has no case, but the above is simply not true. It is this kind of thinking that prevents people from filing law suits when they should. Not only can you sue the casino and still play, you can sue the NV Gaming Enforcement, and bankrupt the Griffin Agency, and still play all over. Just ask Exhibit CAA.

When a casino lays there hands on you do not be afraid to sue.
 
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21gunsalute

Well-Known Member
#8
#8
Pro21 said:
I agree that BJAttack has no case, but the above is simply not true. It is this kind of thinking that prevents people from filing law suits when they should. Not only can you sue the casino and still play, you can sue the NV Gaming Enforcement, and bankrupt the Griffin Agency, and still play all over. Just ask Exhibit CAA.

When a casino lays there hands on you do not be afraid to sue.
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Well the point is he has no case and he'd be doing a very stupid thing to pursue this. He'd get laughed right out of court and most likely out of most lawyers offices, most of whom would probably charge him for office time anyway. And physically laying hands on someone is quite different from simply changing the penetration, which usually varies from dealer to dealer and shoe to shoe.
 
Pro21

Pro21

Well-Known Member
#9
#9
Yes, I agree with you completely on those points.

What I am trying to stop is this idea that suing casinos will prevent people from playing. That "myth" prevented people from suing when they should have been.
 
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Diver

Well-Known Member
#10
#10
bjattack said:
I have on occasion made large bets when I was playing what I believed was a good game of blackjack. Decent rules and decent penetration . . . . I was then given about 60% penetration, there was no chance I could make back the thousands that I lost with that change in penetration.
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Perhaps it would help to know what the rest of the playing conditions were for the game in question, including the original penetration. From there it would be possible to gauge the change in expectation.
 
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bjattack

Member
#11
#11
Diver said:
Perhaps it would help to know what the rest of the playing conditions were for the game in question, including the original penetration. From there it would be possible to gauge the change in expectation.
Click to expand...
Original pen was good...


21gunsalute said:
Do they have posted rules stating what the penetration will be?
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Maybe the casino should have had a sign saying "We will change the penetration from beatable, to unbeatable whenever we want to, or specifically if we feel you will win money"

One has to assume when they risk their money on a game, the game will not change, or maybe they would never have risked their money in the first place.
 
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Brock Windsor

Well-Known Member
#12
#12
Case law

As a case reference I suggest you read Campione v. Adamar (TropWorld). As the law stands today I don't see how you would have a case in civil court or before the CCC but good luck.
BW
 
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21gunsalute

Well-Known Member
#14
#14
bjattack said:
Original pen was good...




Maybe the casino should have had a sign saying "We will change the penetration from beatable, to unbeatable whenever we want to, or specifically if we feel you will win money"

One has to assume when they risk their money on a game, the game will not change, or maybe they would never have risked their money in the first place.
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They can cut the deck wherever they want to. You choose to play by their rules...they don't have to play by yours. They hold all the cards.

And apparently you lost a great deal of money when the pen was "good". Why would you think the results would be any different if they gave you the same pen? They may well have saved you from losing even more money. Once again, how are you going to present your case? Are you going to cry to the judge "I got gypped. I lost a bunch of money on high counts when they offered a good pen and then they shuffled the cards and cut off too many cards so I couldn't get as many big bets out so I could lose even more money."?

Why not just cry to the judge that they cut the deck in a bad place that gave all the good cards to the dealer and all the poor cards to you. That was very unfair of them! :rolleyes:
 
ChefJJ

ChefJJ

Well-Known Member
#15
#15
bjattack said:
Maybe the casino should have had a sign saying "We will change the penetration from beatable, to unbeatable whenever we want to, or specifically if we feel you will win money"

One has to assume when they risk their money on a game, the game will not change, or maybe they would never have risked their money in the first place.
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The question that this all goes back to, which UK-21 already asked: Does changing the location of the cut card (meaning penetration to APs; not much more to any other player) change the game?

Realizing that jurisdictions can handle things differently, isn't this an acceptable countermeasure for AC casinos when suspecting an AP? And NJ is a state where barring a card counter was stricken down by the courts.

It's not that anyone here necessarily wants you to be unsuccessful at the tables, but I can't imagine that calling this kind of attention to you via a lawsuit (that doesn't appear to hold any water...not that I'm licensed to offer legal representation) is going to do you any good. Maybe there's more to it though. :confused:

Sounds like you feel crapped on, but cooler heads shall prevail. Learn from your experience with the heat, reflect on how to work around it, and hone your AP skills.

as always, good luck to you :joker:
 
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shadroch

Well-Known Member
#16
#16
bjattack said:
Original pen was good...




Maybe the casino should have had a sign saying "We will change the penetration from beatable, to unbeatable whenever we want to, or specifically if we feel you will win money"

One has to assume when they risk their money on a game, the game will not change, or maybe they would never have risked their money in the first place.
Click to expand...

Assume nothing.
 
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