Surrender

[cisco]

Hello everyone,

Where are some Vegas casino's that offer surrender? Not just Vegas either anywhere in the country. Thanks.

 

[Sonny]

There are far too many casinos to list here. You would be better off looking through some of the casino listings for this information.

One source is Wong's Current Blackjack News newsletter. You can either buy a subscription ($25 per quarter or $80 per year) or just get one issue for $12. A subscription to Trackjack.com will let you search for games with certain rules or in certain locations and has listing for all over the world for the same price. The other option is to use one of the less reliable but free websites:

http://blackjack.skister.com/
http://wizardofodds.com/blackjack/vegas.html

-Sonny-

 

[cisco]

So surrender is still offered as a viable playing rule, then?

I thought it was going by the wayside because of an advantage to the player.

 

[ihate17]

.07% for the player

So surrender is still offered as a viable playing rule, then?

I thought it was going by the wayside because of an advantage to the player.

What we are talking about here is late surrender. Early surrender is not available I think in any U.S. casino. If played correctly it does give the player .07%. The thing is, every casino should offer late surrender because I believe well over 95% of those people who do surrender do it wrong over and over again. Based on the way I watch people surrender 12 vs 8 and things like that, they are not subtracting from the casino edge but adding to it.

Personally, I do not know how many of thousands of times I have played on a table where at first I am the only one who surrenders. Once I have surrendered something like a 16 to a dealer 10 and other players see that the dealer had a pat hand and I would not have won if I hit, some of them will start surrendering their 14 vs 7 etc. Yet the number of casinos who offer surrender has gone down probably because casinos are always looking for ways to increase their house edge.

ihate17

 

[21forme]

If played correctly it does give the player .07%.

This is true for the BS player, but for the counter it's somewhere between 0.2-0.3% because it will be used more with bigger bets and additional plays.

 

[cisco]

Thanks Sonny,

the wizard of odds link waqs very helpful.

 

[Bashful C. Stupid-Butt]

More info I was looking for.

Would also like to know table min and max.

I can see a few rules that have changed. I always thought dealer stands on any 17.

 

[SilentBob420BMFJ]

am i wrong to assume that the casinos that offer LS usually have H17? i think the reason why most casinos dont offer LS is because (im guessing here) the majority of people that use it are people who know what they are doing, whereas ploppies never give up

 

[Mimosine]

am i wrong to assume that the casinos that offer LS usually have H17? i think the reason why most casinos dont offer LS is because (im guessing here) the majority of people that use it are people who know what they are doing, whereas ploppies never give up

part one: yes most places that have LS are H17.

part two: wrong, the majority of people using LS are ploppies and don't have a clue how to use it. see posts by ihate17 above. i've seen more people at the table play it wrong, than right. 16v10 is played right more often than not, but i've seem plenty of people h or s on 16v10 AND surrender other hands.

i've seen people surrender hands of 7 and 8 vs. dealer 7.

LS is a win win situation for the casino, i can't believe they are so stupid. most people don't use it - so it doesn't hurt their edge AT ALL. then of those that do, they give up a bigger edge to the house, that the edge lost by those that use it properly. what chumps.

 

[ihate17]

H-17 or S-17 does not really matter

am i wrong to assume that the casinos that offer LS usually have H17? i think the reason why most casinos dont offer LS is because (im guessing here) the majority of people that use it are people who know what they are doing, whereas ploppies never give up

In Vegas, casinos that offer surrender often have it on both games. Places like Mandalay Bay, Tropicana, MGM, Monte Carlo, Wynn and Bellagio and many others have both Hit and Stay on soft 17 tables and offer it on both kinds of shoes.
Basically today there are no longer any double deck games with surrender I believe and casinos that have surrender have it on both.

I think when casinos decide to have or not have surrender, you get two opinions. The casinos that like table games and have some good ones appear to understand that even though surrender will reduce the house edge, that it in fact increases it because the vast majority of players play it wrong. This would be the MGM properties as a big corporate example.
Casinos that dislike table games and do not really understand them, fear a rule that a decent player can use to his advantage and do not understand that most players are not decent players, so they reject it. This would be Harrah's properties.

ihate17

 

[ColorMeUp]

I think when casinos decide to have or not have surrender, you get two opinions. The casinos that like table games and have some good ones appear to understand that even though surrender will reduce the house edge, that it in fact increases it because the vast majority of players play it wrong. This would be the MGM properties as a big corporate example.
Casinos that dislike table games and do not really understand them, fear a rule that a decent player can use to his advantage and do not understand that most players are not decent players, so they reject it. This would be Harrah's properties.

ihate17

I think you summed up the differences between the MGM and Harrah's properties perfectly!

 

[creeping panther]

I am lucky enough to play dd and shoe games that offer LS and S-17.

The problem is that you will often DO BATTLE with other players who get very angry at you surrendering. For a skilled AP surrender is a most valuable option and far mor powerfull than most imagine.

creeping panther

 

[Automatic Monkey]

I think you summed up the differences between the MGM and Harrah's properties perfectly!

That's true, sometimes I think the casinos have no idea just how rare even a solid Basic Strategy player is, let alone an AP. Surrender is a rule that takes skill to apply properly, and they will rarely see a player who knows how to use it.

What does surprise me is that casino allow resplitting of aces anywhere, because even ploppies know to split aces and that's not a rule they can screw up. RSA is nice for a counter too but not as good as LS.

 

[bigbjfan]

I found a lot of the casinos on the vegas strip allowed late surrender. I liked having that option. The other people at my table had no clue what I was doing when I would surrender. It is usually unadvertised so I would ask the dealer if it was offered.

 

[EasyRhino]

The problem is that you will often DO BATTLE with other players who get very angry at you surrendering.

I don't have much of a problem with that. I think any player who really studies The Flow is going to know that surrendering is the same as standing, and thus won't corrupt the sacred flow.

 

[ColorMeUp]

I found a lot of the casinos on the vegas strip allowed late surrender. I liked having that option. The other people at my table had no clue what I was doing when I would surrender. It is usually unadvertised so I would ask the dealer if it was offered.

This is definitely true, a lot of the houses there don't have surrender advertised anywhere, but they do offer it if you ask.

 

[Kaiser]

The problem is that you will often DO BATTLE with other players who get very angry at you surrendering. For a skilled AP surrender is a most valuable option and far mor powerfull than most imagine.

Someone told me last night that surrendering your hand was "a sucker play". He asked me why the hell would the casino let you do it if it wasn't a big money maker for them?

I almost started saying that most morons don't know how to play it and start wimping out on too many hands, but I didn't want to look like I knew what I was talking about that much. It also didn't help that twice within 5 hands I surrendered a 16 against a 9, and the next cards ended up being 4 and 5. This caused the guy to my left to lose it one of the times, because he took "my 4" on his double down, the next card was an ace that went to his second hand, and it ended up causing him to bust. He was an ignorant asian dude who started yapping away in his language to a buddy, while I just sat there are smiled.

Lately, surrender is the one thing that gets me the most grief. I surrendered a hand with a max bet out near the end of the shoe, and the dealer even announced loudly "surrendering on 15" to the pit. Maybe they didn't like me spreading to 2 hands to go above the table limit, and get more money on the table with the cut card rapidly approaching. heh

In my 2 hour session last night, hopping between a couple tables, I was the only person to surrender a hand.

 

[rogue1]

You're right-many who play it don't know how to play it correctly-many more never heard of it.

 

[ihate17]

Very common comment of dealers

Someone told me last night that surrendering your hand was "a sucker play". He asked me why the hell would the casino let you do it if it wasn't a big money maker for them?

Dealers will often say that casinos only put in rules because it makes them money. Of course if you wish to respond then ask them, "then that makes double down, splitting, doubling after a split and things like that sucker plays also?" Of course they will not have a decent answer but you may not want to let the dealer know that you are capable of thought.

Interestingly, if what the dealer said was true, you would find surrender available in all the casinos that offer unplayable games but in fact the opposite is more the rule. Places that offer decent games tend to have late surrender.

The most common statement made by non surrendering players actually has more truth behind it than the dealer statement. "I came here to gamble, not surrender!" It is true, they came to gamble and will most likely lose. You came to run your card counting side line business and make a profit while taking a risk while having an advantage. Definately not the same kind of gamble the average player is talking about.

ihate17

 

[Kasi]

If played correctly it does give the player .07%.ihate17

No big deal but I have the feeling, contrary to the way it usually works, the advantage of late surrender to a BS player actually decreases as the number of decks decrease.

Down to perhaps a third at 1D compared to 6D. (assume your figure is around a 6-8D S17 game.)

Likewise, I have the feeling, at least at multidecks, the advantage to a BS player actually increases with a H17 rule.

If true, it begs the question why casinos would be less likely to offer late surrender in 1-2D games and, seemingly perhaps, more likely to offer it in H17 games.